Sign of weakness or display of courage?

[RETIREDTrapped]

How much pain can you be in to warrant a suicide? There are people who have been through atrocities resulting in excrutiating pain at the hand's of horrible people; there have been people who have lost legs and limbs, and have not taken a life of alcohol to "drown out their pain" (this can lead to depression) -

You still don't understand.

You are thinking of 'physical pain'. Physical Pain is superficial, for it goes away, yet there is a large emphasis on it.

Pain. Have you ever lost the person that you loved? The one person that you 'connect' with? That is true pain.

Some people escape through drugs, others through music, and some people just want to escape from it all, just to stop the pain.

When you are at a point in your life when you realize that you have simply been standing still and not going anywhere, and you realize that your dreams will never come true, then you will understand...

 

[Sullen Jester]

I've read a case where standard sub-scriptions caused a chemical inbalance in a depressed persons brain and had some strange side effects (He thought God was talking to him), but that's just "one of the extremes".

They're right, in that, not everyone is the same. Noone is the same. No two people will have the same threshold of pain, the same understanding of pain.

I could go through something that will be nothing to you, but you could fall to pieces in my every day life. Experiences can strengthen, and they can kill.

 

[Jannet]

I think you tend to forget something very significant:Not all people are the same....thus not everybody can be as brave as the lady you mentioned.. does this make them worthless???? no way...

This is why I said "some" people. I don't apply this to everyone, since of course there are suicides that give evidence to that. It's not bravery that makes this woman do what she is doing - it is the fight to live - to be with her family in the future, to be alive to do all the things she wants to do in life! People that commit suicide do not value life - I'm talking about the people who already commited suicide. There are people who have contemplated suicide but have decided against it. Why? Perhaps it's because they want to be there for their kids in the future, or because they realize the pain they feel right now is only temporary - they can handle it, and many other reasons. If your mind is so diseased with depression that you want to end your life - you need help. For example, a man breaks his leg. Does he stay home wallowing in his pain, suffering, and to stop the pain, does he take a gun to his head? No. He goes to a hospital where they can mend the leg. He'll be in pain for a while, but with time, it will heal. It's the same with depression. Look at it as a disease (which it is), an inbalance of the brain - it all points to one thing - seek help. And since the help that is available are doctors, support groups, etc., this is the kind of help you should seek.

 

[Sullen Jester]

Originally posted by Trapped
Pain. Have you ever lost the person that you loved? The one person that you 'connect' with? That is true pain.

Some people escape through drugs, others through music, and some people just want to escape from it all, just to stop the pain.

He's right, again.

There have been three people in my life, that I have truly loved, and that I've truly needed. And they've left me. The latest was 8 months ago. I still can feel the pain.

Music is what can keep me up. I can lose my mind in the music, I can forget about anything, and delve into the music.

 

[Sullen Jester]

Originally posted by Jannet


This is why I said "some" people. I don't apply this to everyone, since of course there are suicides that give evidence to that. It's not bravery that makes this woman do what she is doing - it is the fight to live - to be with her family in the future, to be alive to do all the things she wants to do in life! People that commit suicide do not value life - I'm talking about the people who already commited suicide. There are people who have contemplated suicide but have decided against it. Why? Perhaps it's because they want to be there for their kids in the future, or because they realize the pain they feel right now is only temporary - they can handle it, and many other reasons. If your mind is so diseased with depression that you want to end your life - you need help. For example, a man breaks his leg. Does he stay home wallowing in his pain, suffering, and to stop the pain, does he take a gun to his head? No. He goes to a hospital where they can mend the leg. He'll be in pain for a while, but with time, it will heal. It's the same with depression. Look at it as a disease (which it is), an inbalance of the brain - it all points to one thing - seek help. And since the help that is available are doctors, support groups, etc., this is the kind of help you should seek.

Imbalances from nutrients etc. from foods can lead to depression, look up Udo Erasmas (sp?) and his book "Fats that heal, Fats that kill" it will explain a lot to you, on that. You don't need all the doctors, and support groups, when you can just learn to give your mind, your body, what it needs to grow and sustain itself for day to day life.

People that commit suicide do not value life

This not true - people I have known have valued life, have loved life, but just believed there was too much against them. There are other reasons than the "value of life" that can lead to suicide.

 

[Belial]

Suicide takes a lot of strength and courage. Either that or total desperation and hopelessness. Speaking as one who once tried to kill himself (and obviously failed), it isn't as "easy" as so many people say. Even in your darkest time, ending your own life requires that you fight your bodies natural instinct to remain alive at all costs.

Which is why it either takes an incredible amount of strength, or complete and utter hopelessness and desperation.

 

[Jannet]

Originally posted by Trapped


When you are at a point in your life when you realize that you have simply been standing still and not going anywhere, and you realize that your dreams will never come true, then you will understand...

Never will I realize that my dreams will never come true. NEVER. I will fight to the DEATH to make them come true, and I will take the steps to get me there. If you realize you've been standing still and going nowhere - good - that's the first step to TAKE the first step forward to go SOMEWHERE.

And physical pain can lead to emotional pain. I used the physical pain examples because it directly affects the emotions of the person. Don't you think that what the Jewish people went through physically affected them mentally and emotionally? What are emotions? Emotion: A strong feeling, as of joy, sorrow, or hate. 2. A state of mental agitation or disturbance. MENTAL AGITATION OR DISTURBANCE - as in "being emotional about a topic you defend." Since an emotion is a mental agitation or disturbance, it can be positive, or negative. And a negative mental disturbance is an inbalance of the person's mind. It needs help, once again.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

People that commit suicide do not value life

That is not true at all.

Like i said in my other post, you can't simply 'understand' unless you have been there yourself.

. For example, a man breaks his leg. Does he stay home wallowing in his pain, suffering, and to stop the pain, does he take a gun to his head? No. He goes to a hospital where they can mend the leg. He'll be in pain for a while, but with time, it will heal.

Jannet... you do not understand. 'Pain' is not in the form of a broken leg, or in losing a limb.

Pain is what you feel when there is no hope, and you feel like you are Trapped In A Corner...

 

[Raven777]

mmm... oh do I remember when I was there...
and I'm glad I didn't go through with it...

Display of courage?
How ironic. A true display of courgae from one ruminating sucide is taking control of their own life and problems.

 

[Belial]

The desire to kill yourself comes when the pain you feel outmeasures your coping resources and reverves of personal strength.

Of course I'm refering to emotional pain. People yearn to end their life when they are in more pain than they can handle. When no amount of music, or food, or any other coping resource can help enough. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE can reach this level, and they don't share similar traits, as Jannet suggests. People who live an ideal life, people who live a shitty life, people who value life itself with a passion can want to end their own lives.

Wanting, trying, and even succeeding at commiting suicide doesn't make you a coward, or pathetic, or someone who "doesn't value life." It means that you were simply in so much pain that you couldn't handle it. The best thing you can do for someone contemplating suicide is talk to him and be willing to listen and be there for him.

 

[Belial]

Originally posted by Trapped

Jannet... you do not understand. 'Pain' is not in the form of a broken leg, or in losing a limb.

Pain is what you feel when there is no hope, and you feel like you are Trapped In A Corner...

I agree completely. "Pain" doesn't come from psysical harm. But I think it's a waste of words to try to convinse Jannet, or anyone who hasn't gone through such suffering of that. When I tried to kill myself and my family made a big joke of it, I tried to convinse them of why I tried, and not only did they not understand, they laughed even harder.

 

[Jannet]

Imbalances from nutrients etc. from foods can lead to depression, look up Udo Erasmas (sp?) and his book "Fats that heal, Fats that kill" it will explain a lot to you, on that. You don't need all the doctors, and support groups, when you can just learn to give your mind, your body, what it needs to grow and sustain itself for day to day life.

Of course they can! And so can being deeply depressed affect your mind chemically. It has been proven that people that are depressed/have a hopeless outlook on life have more illnesses, and people that have a bright outlook on life tend to heal quicker. There is a country (I don't remember which) - its doctors will not tell you what you are ailing from, to prevent you from becoming depressed and dying faster.

Jannet... you do not understand. 'Pain' is not in the form of a broken leg, or in losing a limb.

It is an example of how you should treat emotional pain/disease. My example is quite clear - if you break a leg, you seek help to mend it - and if you are deeply depressed/suicidal - you seek help to mend it. As a man with a broken leg does not go home and wallow in misery and agony, a person who is depressed should not go home and wallow in misery and agony. They both require medical attention. That was my point.

Pain is what you feel when there is no hope, and you feel like you are Trapped In A Corner...

There is always hope, and get the hell out of the corner! Break the walls down, let some light in, stop PITYING yourself. There will always be people who've had it worse than you, and have fought to stay alive, and have succeeded. There is NEVER no hope, not even with a terminal illness, because on any given day they could come up with a cure for it.

That is not true at all.

Yes it is. Life is special: it gives you awareness, a brain, feelings to experience happiness, sadness, laughter, crying, love, hate. You have a heart that hurts when pained, and a heart that rejoices when happy. Your life is what makes you YOU, and you have the opportunity to live life to the fullest. YOU make the choices: do you want to live in self-pity, sadness, self-hate, gloominess, darkness? Then go for it, but you have the choice to get out of that mind-state and be as happy as you want to be. A person that commits suicide does not value their life - they don't value the fact that they're human beings capable of abstract thought, complex emotions, and the ability to get out of a rut when down (even animals fight to stay alive).

 

[Raven777]

Originally posted by Belial
When I tried to kill myself and my family made a big joke of it, I tried to convinse them of why I tried, and not only did they not understand, they laughed even harder.

I feel you man. Things like that made me look in my life in a total different way when I got out of my cloud. There really isn't anyway to explain it to anyone - and I tried just like Belial - unless you go through them.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

People yearn to end their life when they are in more pain than they can handle. When no amount of music, or food, or any other coping resource can help enough

Exactly. Things like music and food can only help so-much, you get to a point where even those things bring you no joy or escape.

 

[Jannet]

Funny how you guys are assuming I've never been depressed. Oh, yeah, I'm in my 30's and I've ALWAYS had tweety birds in my blue skies. lol... Yeah, my life has been peaches and cream - I've had a gold spoon in my mouth from infancy, and I never, EVER experienced depression. So everything I'm talking is kaka, since you THINK I've never experiened it....hehehe..that's funny.

 

[bleedingskeptic]

i gotta go with belial on this one. unless you've been through this kind of pain, you wouldn't be able to understand it. a suicidal person has alot more value for life than some of you realise, because they'll find anything to cling to it they can.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

My example is quite clear - if you break a leg, you seek help to mend it - and if you are deeply depressed/suicidal - you seek help to mend it

*shakes head*. It's not that simple, Jannet. It's not like a doctor can prescribe 'depression antibiotics'... When you have lost something, and you know that you can never get them back, then you really are Trapped...

You are thinking of 'depression' as a medical thing... That is wrong, there is a difference between medical depression and just plain sadness.

There is always hope, and get the hell out of the corner! Break the walls down, let some light in, stop PITYING yourself. There will always be people who've had it worse than you, and have fought to stay alive, and have succeeded. There is NEVER no hope, not even with a terminal illness, because on any given day they could come up with a cure for it.

First of all, I am not Trapped in a corner. I pulled myself out of my hole a long time ago, but that doesn't mean that there is no holes in my life anymore, i lost someone very close to me, and that is something that 'getting help' cannot heal.

You seem to like referring to things like broken legs, illness, and medical things like that. But that is not what I, nor Belial, are talking about.

 

[Sullen Jester]

And so can being deeply depressed affect your mind chemically.

Turn that around.

Chemically imbalanced mind affects your moods, a la depression.

My example is quite clear - if you break a leg, you seek help to mend it - and if you are deeply depressed/suicidal - you seek help to mend it.

And this is not always easy.
Have you ever heard a hungry man not going to a "free food" place because he believes there is not enough to go around?
It can happen with depression "They can't help me, they have to deal with ALL the others".
AND there are times when noone can help you, you have to do it yourself. There are problems opening up to strangers, depending on how communicative you are (See before: there are only three people that I have ever opened up to fully)

There is always hope, and get the hell out of the corner! Break the walls down, let some light in, stop PITYING yourself. There will always be people who've had it worse than you, and have fought to stay alive, and have succeeded. There is NEVER no hope, not even with a terminal illness, because on any given day they could come up with a cure for it.

There is NOT always hope. Yes, there can be people who've had it worse than you, but will that make you happy? "Oh look, theres people who are lucky to be able to eat thier own faeces, drink thier own piss on a weekly basis. I feel much better now"

Medical cures will not always be the best option, hell, they aren't the best option. There are a lot of side effects that can occur with medication, yet we still use it, because its cheap and easy. Sitting down and talking to someone you love, trust, and can really communicate with is often better than ANY deppression-drug.

 

[Sullen Jester]

Originally posted by Jannet
Funny how you guys are assuming I've never been depressed. Oh, yeah, I'm in my 30's and I've ALWAYS had tweety birds in my blue skies. lol... Yeah, my life has been peaches and cream - I've had a gold spoon in my mouth from infancy, and I never, EVER experienced depression. So everything I'm talking is kaka, since you THINK I've never experiened it....hehehe..that's funny.

I don't know about the others, but to me, you speak as though you were the person observing from a distance.

 

[Jannet]

And Belial, I certainly am not laughing at the way your family laughed at you. That's despicable, and totally wrong. They should have supported you, not laughed. That's so horrible, and I'm really sorry you went through that. But you're here! Alive, sharing your thoughts, affecting the lives of people around you! That is something to rejoice!