Slate VTM and VCC vs Reelbus and Satson vs no saturation

[mickrich]

I got the free trial of the Slate stuff, as I'm sure most of you did.
Here is a test using a session from the studio from last week.
This test is only using the different plugins on the guitars. The drums, bass, vocals are not changing.

Slate vcc 4kE with drive at 3 for channel and bus, levels set using VU.
VTM on 16 track for channels and 2 track for master.

Satson without fat or filters on channel and bus (modern crosstalk), levels set using VU
Reelbus profesional 30ips for channels and hybrid for master.

In no particular order, which sounds best to you?
No stauration, Slate, or Satson/Reelbus
I will reveal which is which after 10 replies.
This is not a scientific test so I don't want to here any nonsense about how the test was done or should have been done
The mix is summing through stereo pairs for drums, bass, guitars, vocals out of Apogee Ensemble Thunderbolt into A&H Zed-R16, through Drawmer 1968me bus compressor, back into Apogee line in.
No limiter on master, all files normalised to 0dBFS

A
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2133088/TMS_SAT_TEST_A.mp3

B
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2133088/TMS_SAT_TEST_B.mp3

C
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2133088/TMS_SAT_TEST_C.mp3

 

[mickrich]

Mods, please leave this in Backline.
It's about the plugins, not a "rate my mix" thread.
Thanks

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

A is too harsh in the highs, B is too muddy, C sounds the best to me.

 

[mickrich]

A is too harsh in the highs, B is too muddy, C sounds the best to me.

Wow, that was fast.
What about stereo image?

 

[ArsMemoria]

Admittedly, I'm kinda horrible at this stuff, but I'll give it a shot.

A: Same as He's Dead, Jim. Kick seems more "missing" in the 60-80 range to me compared to the other two, but I'm also only listening on headphones. So, take that for what it's worth.
B: I could feel things hit more further back. The kick, for example, sounds more up front in A, but here it fills a little more space behind it as well.
C: Feels around the same as B, but with a tad bit more clarity.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

I cant hear much difference but C have more clarity.

Sorry by the offtopic but mickrich how do you usually use Reelbus in your mixes? It´s the first in master bus? before the compression, limiter? After? Somewhere in de middle?

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Wow, that was fast.
What about stereo image?

Same, basically- C > B > A.

 

[Vihaleipä]

I also think C sounds the best, followed by A and then B, A sounds a little bit sharper and more saturated than B which sounds more "plain", C sounds the most saturated and warmest to my ears in a good way, it glues the mix together really nicely. The difference between A and B is not too big to my ears, I guess A is Satson/Reelbus, B is ITB and C is Slate VCC/VTM. Nice comparison btw .

 

[FarBeyondMetal]

My guess is

A No saturation
B Slate
C Toneboosters.

B sounds really smeared with not as much dynamics.

 

[ArsMemoria]

I guess my guesses would be the opposite of FarBeyondMetal:

A: No saturation
B: TB/Satson
C: Slate

I'm kinda going on the idea that you pay more to get a more refined end result. B sounds good to me, but C sounds like it should be $200-300 worth in plugins vs. $50 worth. If I'm wrong here, I might just drop my idea of picking up VCC down the line.

 

[Manicompression]

I like C the least. I like A & B fairly equally but if I had to go with a winner I like A best.

My guess is

A VCC and VTM
B Toneboosters / Satson
C nothing

I REALLY like VTM coloring on cymbals with 30 or 15ips on the 1/2" FG9 setting. I find the 2" on most other things fairly transparent except snare and kick where the transient softening is almost never what Im shooting for. Lately Im kind of digging using the 2inch on the master buss because of that overall transperency but subtle softening.

With VCC I really dig using it with low drive on most channels but changing the model for different groups of instruments. IE: Neve with Bass and Kick, API on Snare, SSL E or Neve on Guitars, Trident or Neve on the 2Buss. I would encourage anyone trying out these plugs for the first time to experiment a bit and to commit early. Because the models are essentially dynamic EQ & saturation curves its really only beneficial to mix into them. Its always been really destructive towards my frequency balances when I try to add it halfway through or at the end of a mix. That is where Satson shines in my book, you can sort of add it to your processing chain without a ton of consideration to the outcome because it doesn't have the more extreme effect on your balances but it still does add some glue to the overall picture. I would like to try the newer Sonimus console thing too.

 

[Ermz]

One thing I discovered very early on about using VCC is that if you don't mix through it from the outset, it's pointless. These tests don't give you much real-world knowledge because you have to tailor your mix specifically for each form of saturation. This is ESPECIALLY true if you're using something really obvious like tape saturation. If you mix ITB, then apply these afterward, most of the time the ITB mix will make the most sense. I understand you didn't want people criticizing your methods, but it's important that people here are able to distinguish that their preference in this case may not be a real world reflection on the validity of these tools.

 

[mickrich]

Very interesting.
Thanks for taking part in this test.

A Satson
B Slate
C None

A couple of thoughts about this.
Maybe tracking through API then summing through Zed-R16 console and Dawmer 1968e valve bus compressor is enough real saturation and any more is overkill. I may be trying to simulate something I am already using.

The original mix was done with Satson. As Ermz and Manicompression point out, these plugins should be mixed into rather than thrown on at the end so the test is somewhat flawed but there is no way around this really for this test.

For me, the Satson mix is the best. Just the right amount of added excitement.
Slate seems to add high mid harshness and narrows the stereo image but maybe I have not used it enough to "figure it out".

 

[mickrich]

I cant hear much difference but C have more clarity.

Sorry by the offtopic but mickrich how do you usually use Reelbus in your mixes? It´s the first in master bus? before the compression, limiter? After? Somewhere in de middle?

I don't always use it but if I am, first plugin before satson.
On the mix, I don't get to stereo until after the console and bus compressor so I have no choice but to put it on the master bus after the Drawmer compressor.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

Thanks for the info man!

 

[ArsMemoria]

Mickrich,

Are you using any of the other settings to taste with Reelbus? Care to share some tips with any of that? I'm usually using the Glue preset with some tweaks here and there, but I'm kind of lost with some of the other settings.

 

[crillemannen]

Just listening at home but I liked the one without and satson the most. I've been using less and less saturation plugins the past year and i think I've reached a nice middle ground with a nice separation and punch in my mixes. My conclusion is that Saturation/tape plugins tend to smear things, and although they glue they add to much bad things to the mixes to just be put across the whole mix.

Some elements that i think benefit from some saturation is OH's in general, but other then that i try to be very careful using it.

 

[gfactor]

I avoided looking at the other replies and just listened. My favorite is C, followed by B, then A. I suspect A is no saturation because it sounds the harshest but let's find out!

Wow was I wrong haha

 

[Delitzsch]

Some elements that i think benefit from some saturation is OH's in general

I'm enjoying the Waves Kramer tape plugin on my rhythm guitar bus, right now.

 

[Manicompression]

Mickrich could mix a better song than me with an ear chopped off but this test was poorly executed. Vcc and Vtm arent the be all end all but as stated by others you really have to mix into them.

I also like Kramer Tape on guitars and bass often. I stay away from it on 2buss though. I found it harshened up the high mids too much.