South Dakota Bans Abortion!

[BigFakeSmile]

haha oh yeah thats the other thing! they didnt teach about that pill back when i was in high school, and they probably still dont. i learned about it in college when a condom broke. and im like 'whoa why the fuck didnt i know about this?' and i went to public school in a wealthy and sophisticated part of the country where they start teaching you sex/health education from like age 11. and then to a liberal school where they give you a handful of condoms no matter what you went to the nurse for. but its not like that all over!

 

[Feraliminal Lycanthropizer]

at least in my country where the birth rate is too low.

.
That's because your country is smart. Overpopulation isn't pretty.

those who dont want their baby could leave him/her in an orphane place (?). and an orphan can live well, most of them do not regret being alive.

Um, I think this is a mistake. also, if you ask almost anyone h(excluding wannabe nihilists) most of them will niot say they wish they were never born.

-------
Has any pro-lifers given the thought about when most abortions take place? And do you place a difference between anti-abortion and anti-choice?

 

[BigFakeSmile]

relevant quote from my fav sex column this week (savage love www.avclub.com):

"Straight Rights Update: Earlier this month, Republicans in South Dakota successfully banned abortion in that state. Last week, the GOP-controlled state house of representatives in Missouri voted to ban state-funded family-planning clinics from dispensing birth control. "If you hand out contraception to single women," one Republican state rep told the Kansas City Star, "we're saying promiscuity is okay." On the federal level, Republicans are blocking the over-the-counter sale of emergency contraception and keeping a 100 percent effective HPV vaccine—a vaccine that will save the lives of thousands of women every year—from being made available.

The GOP's message to straight Americans: If you have sex, we want it to fuck up your lives as much as possible. No birth control, no emergency contraception, no abortion services, no life-saving vaccines. If you get pregnant, tough shit. You're going to have those babies, ladies, and you're going to make those child-support payments, gentlemen. And if you get HPV and it leads to cervical cancer, well, that's too bad. Have a nice funeral, slut.

What's it going to take to get a straight-rights movement off the ground? The GOP in Kansas is seeking to criminalize hetero heavy petting, for God's sake! Wake up and smell the freaking Holy War, breeders! The religious right hates heterosexuality just as much as it hates homosexuality. Fight back!"

 

[Larsson]

[...]
also its not in a christian level that i'm against it, its in a sense that i find it sick that they should throw what will become human in the fucking garbage
[...]

You are aware of whats happening when you spill your seed at night? or in a condom for that mather.

 

[Stygian Sins]

You are aware of whats happening when you spill your seed at night? or in a condom for that mather.

you have a point

 

[thebeardednorseman]

i find there is something very...strange in this discussion about abortion. i mean what conception of human do we have? does a child belong to his parents? do they have a right of life and death upon him? so children don't belong to their parent because they are independent and free beings. so are the fetuses ; they spend 9 months in their mothers' body but do not belong to them. So can a woman, or a couple, decides that another being have to die or to live? i think not.
if people are free and important enough to be not sentenced to death, they are free and important enough to be not aborted. in the same way i think anti-abortion people who are pro-death sentence incoherent.

and if you think you are mature enough to have sex, you must mature enough to face the consequences. if you're a man, face the consequences of your acts. so if you're too weak to, do not have sex.

 

[Feraliminal Lycanthropizer]

i find there is something very...strange in this discussion about abortion. i mean what conception of human do we have? does a child belong to his parents? do they have a right of life and death upon him? so children don't belong to their parent because they are independent and free beings. so are the fetuses ; they spend 9 months in their mothers' body but do not belong to them. So can a woman, or a couple, decides that another being have to die or to live? i think not.
if people are free and important enough to be not sentenced to death, they are free and important enough to be not aborted. in the same way i think anti-abortion people who are pro-death sentence incoherent.

So if the baby doesnt belong to the mother than why should she take care of it? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I agree people should be more responsible but who's to decide when the mass of cells is a being?

 

[Celtik Militia]

You are aware of whats happening when you spill your seed at night? or in a condom for that mather.

sorry for being rude but thats one of the most stupid remarks the pro-abortion people have.
a little sperm thingy carries no life, a fertalised egg does.


thebeardednorseman is right. people for abortion say that women should have a right to what they do with their own body... well i say to this: arent they fogetting someone? how about the futur baby? doesnt he have a right to live as well.
i'm against abortion yet for death penalty. those sentenced to death penalty had a chance to live their lives and were discovered unworthy of living. aborted babies haven't had a chance to live.


there's this thing i've read on the net which was pretty funny, i forgot how it gows but its something like this:
"a mother has 12 children and is waiting another child. she hardly has any money to raise her children and the doctors say the one in her womb will be deformed and might die at childbirth and tons of other problems.
would you abort that baby?"
and mostly people would say "yes" considering what was said... untill they know the answer :"you've just killed Beethoven".

 

[thebeardednorseman]

Feraliminal Lycanthropizer said : "So if the baby doesnt belong to the mother than why should she take care of it? "

what a strange remark! i'm sure you take care of your friends and fellows although they do not belong to you...

Feraliminal Lycanthropizer said too : "I agree people should be more responsible but who's to decide when the mass of cells is a being?"

I agree, this is a difficult question. but I think this is a wrong question. I mean is the question to know when cells become a being? in France (for exemple) it's possible to abort a child untill the 12th week. it's forbidden latter because the fetuse is considered to be too clause from a person (I mean a law-subject human being). but how can we know that before the 12th week the cells aren't a being, and that after the 12th week the cells are a human being? it's impossible to say because the landmark of the 12th is completely subjective!
my humble opinion is that from conception to death we are human (and so we are during our whole life mass of cells in the medical approach). the Nature creates being that grow slowly, so has a human being to spend 9 month as a fetuse, then as a baby, a child, an adult,... there is not a day(and certainly not a one choosen by so-called scientists) the intellect (or soul or what you want) come into the fetuse or something like that!! the Nature made us the same being from our very beginning to our death, so I think the question is wrong.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Here's something very philosophical/theory of knowledge:
I can't remember anything from my early days,first year or so. Does that mean that such a young human is not able to dwelve into deeper thoughts?

 

[thebeardednorseman]

what a fine question guy!

what do you mean whith "deeper thoughts"? thought? reasoning?feeling?

brain, mind and memory are very complex things! you (and I too) don't remember anything of your first years, but my great grand-mother, a 100 years old lady (a living-ancestor! what a pride!lol), remembers some things from her very first year (actually her third year!) : smells, words, feelings, image, ... whith an awesome precision. so what could we conclude about thoughts, feelings or reasonings during the first years? that's another very enigmatic fact.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

well I mean reflect more about experiences etc
like, I wonder what is outside of my house or something

 

[Tyra]

well I mean reflect more about experiences etc
like, I wonder what is outside of my house or something

Well, in answer to your question, yes, partially. I had to study this for my Early Childhoos Education degree at one point, and here's the thinking on this:
This has to do with the concept of speech, and is a little bit like that thing "If a tree falls in the forets and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?". Well, this is more clear cut: Children before about nine months cannot speak and cannot conceptualise the things they see - lable them if you will. They can form abstract thoughts and see pictures of what it is they are thinking about in their mind, like the tree outside in your example, but they don't know the word for tree and therefore cannot communicate it to others or themselves. The kind of "deep thought" that you're on about requires aquisition of language first. Abstract thoughts, like ones that deal with thinking of things in a future tense actually develops much, much later. Not until then can you actually form "deep thoughts" along the lines of what you're talking about, technically speaking.

When you study "nature people" like I do, you run into this a lot. Westerners think they are stupid because they don't know technical language, but they think we're dumb, because we lack words for emotions and intrisic abstracts that they have. We are ignorant in that way, while they are ignorant in another. Inuits think we're weird because they have 50 words for snow and we only have 3-5. They couldn't survive if they had 3 words for snow, so that makes us dumb, right? Deep thought is a very fleeting concept in this sense! What's deep to you is not deep to some. But as for the technical concept "deep thought", in respeonse to your question, no, babies and toddler are no capable of deep thought, which is part of why you cannot remember your baby and toddler days.

 

[BigFakeSmile]

in the womb, a fetus is built of entirely of materials from its mothers body, with the exception of the amount of matter in one sperm cell. id say she has a right to keep growing the fucking thing or not.

 

[Tyra]

i find there is something very...strange in this discussion about abortion. i mean what conception of human do we have? does a child belong to his parents? do they have a right of life and death upon him? so children don't belong to their parent because they are independent and free beings. so are the fetuses ; they spend 9 months in their mothers' body but do not belong to them. So can a woman, or a couple, decides that another being have to die or to live? i think not.
if people are free and important enough to be not sentenced to death, they are free and important enough to be not aborted. in the same way i think anti-abortion people who are pro-death sentence incoherent.

and if you think you are mature enough to have sex, you must mature enough to face the consequences. if you're a man, face the consequences of your acts. so if you're too weak to, do not have sex.

I understand your thinking, but as one who has carried three babies in my womb, here's my input on your thoghts:
12 weeks is not arbitrary. It's when the brain develops. Before then, you have no personality to me, because the thing that makes you you is your brain. One in three pregancies end in misscarriage before 12 weeks. No pregancy is secure before then. Mother nature clears out babies tht shouldn't be on a regular basis before 12 weeks. Before 12 weeks the fetus is not considered a fetus. The cellcluster is a cellcluster, a blastule and so on, but it is a fetus after 12 weeks due to braindevelopment. After it is born, when it has its own bloodcirculation and so on, it is an infant. Then, when it's a year old, it's a baby. After it learns to walk, it is a toddler. none of these things are arbitaray - they are developmental stages, and so is that 12 week thing.
Until the baby is outside of my body, we are one. It cannot live without me later either, but until it is outside of me, it shares my blood, my heart everything I eat and so on. It is quite simply part of me until the umbilicalcord is cut, just as much as I am part of it. It makes me puke, hate certain foods, crave some others and so on. Mother and fetus is interchangeable until then.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

intelligent. thanks for your input on child psychology there.

 

[Celtik Militia]

i'd like to experience having a baby in me... it must be weird lol.
Tyra, how did it "feel" the first time? isnt so weird? to have something growing in you like an Alien? lol
i find that fascinating, i often have fascinations for life.
hasn't anyone of you looked at yourself in the mirror thinking "this is me, but he looks like a stranger. why am i me? i'm alive..etc..", or when someone is talking to you don't you sometimes dont listen and just think "this person is alive, even if he's my father he's actually a total stranger, he has his own life like i have mine..etc.."
lol, i always think of that and its a really weird feeling to me.

 

[Tyra]

What does it feel like...hmmmm....
Well, for the first trimester it feels like you want to puke all the time. Everything starts to hurt because things that haven't grown since you were a teenager start to grow and streeeeeetch (who knew you had boobs in your armpits?!), but you also gain a totally superior sense of smell, taste and hearing that last until about three months after the baby is born. You can't sleep on your belly, back or on one side. You can't eat a lot of stuff (the smell of coffee, raw meat etc makes you puke), but you crave foods you normally h-a-t-e, and you're starving all the time. You get what I call mushy brain syndrome - i. e. your intelligencequota falls markedly, and you cannot remember anything. Your joints loosen up so that your knees sometimes buckle. You get extremely tired, like you have narcolepsy - you just fall asleep, like it or not. You can't controll your mood. Just as you start to think your body has been taken over by aliens, the baby moves. That's about the fourth month. Then you know it has been taken over by aliens. You have absolutely no say whatsoever in what goes on. It really feels like you have been taken over. And that's just the first four months. It just gets weirder from there... The baby moves inside you and kicks the shit out of you from the inside, either sits on your bladder or against your diaphragm so you can't breath. Just before you have the baby, the nesting instinct hits. then you really cannot do anything but clean, cook and sew, even at night. I think it's a form of temporary insanity. Just as you think your life has been completely taken over, out comes the baby, and then you realize that because you are nursing, you still don't get your body back. You put on four frigging cupsizes (enough the nerves in your chest snap, so you can't feel anything there for the next several years). Then you finish nursing the baby, a year or so later. Then you get pregnant again and it starts all over! Can you tell I hated every minute of it? The amazing parts are:
1. The body knows what it's doing. You have no say. Very primordial oozeish.
2. There is no clear line what is you and what is baby. It's one and the same.

 

[OPETH_DT]

Bush is not my president. I did not vote for him either time. And, besides, what the hell does he, or abortion for that matter, have to do with Amon Amarth?

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

there's a world outside of metal you know