Syria.

Honestly I feel that the cost of taking military action against a nation that's halfway around the world would far outweigh the price of oil gained regardless of the amount.

And the U.S. isn't the only nation considering taking action either. This will be interesting to follow though. I just hope Syria doesn't end up like Egypt.
 
I don't understand what you're saying here. We haven't done anything yet.

I maent in the past. Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Czechoslovakia, Congo, Grenada, Puerto Rico, Libya, Iran, Somaly, etc.
But you will do.

Sovereignty presumes that what happens inside your borders stays inside your borders. In Syria's case, the Assad regime has sought help from Iran (violation of sovereignty against the rebels) and Hezbollah (another violation, not to mention spurring violence in Lebanon), and flouted an international arms embargo by using Russian cargo planes to acquire weapons that they're using to massacre civilians. If you want to cite sovereignty, you have to acknowledge that Assad has voided it in every conceivable manner.

Then the problem is between those countries. US has nothing to do with the problem.
If it affected US sovereignty, with agression, they were legitimated to use the force.
UN exists for that purpose. If the sancions are not working, the way out was to change UNs constitution and accept majority system for votes on the security council.
But "invading" another country is against the principles of justice and international law.

Take the death of Osama Bin Laden on Pakistan as an exemple. US overpassed Pakistan sovereignty to take the terrorist Osama Bin Laden. Even if Osama was a criminal, he had to be judged. But he was just murdered.
And his punishment passed his own personality. His body was vanished, throuwed on the ocean.
Thats agains the human rights. Even a criminal has the right to be judged.

The Russian Revolution was not the least bit concerned with sovereignty. Communism was an explicitly internationalist philosophy, which is why Stalin felt just fine about supplying the Spanish Republicans with arms, taking over entire rebel fronts, and murdering competing factions in the war. Russia also tried to spark revolutions in Western Europe during WWI. Soviet history is a litany of violations of sovereignty.

US tries to spark the democratic revolutions nowadays. Is that right? Why?
Thats something we all need to think about. Is democracy the best for every country? Thats a not obvious question nor an obvious awenser.
Plato wrote about it 380 a.c., and the statement that is the most corrupt system is still valid.
Just see how the US government, trying to save their economic system on 2008 gave all that money... While Henry Paulson from the Lehman Brothers was the Scretary of Treasury, folowed by Timothy Geithner, and that AIG bonuses for the derivatives... Corruption?

Lets just separete things. The russian revolution occured on 1917. Stalin's ascention was on 1924.
The ideals of the revolution had nothing to do with international philosophy. Just read the communist manifest from Karl Marx and Engels and the book Capital from Karl Marx.
The basic philosophy there was to implement positive fundamental rights to the State.
For the real communist philosophy, the is no need for a government or a State.
Although, they implemented a dictatorship socialism, using some of the Lenin-Marx Ideals.
The revolution itself, served to free the people from the old Russian feudalism.
When Stalin forced that regime, it had nothing to do with the real communism (which, btw, is just an utopia).

I'll be the first person to wholeheartedly condemn much of U.S. policy in Latin America during the Cold War, but the world isn't black and white anymore. Without the USSR around, the U.S. is really, truly concerned about fostering democratization in countries where we can help out. If we supported every dictatorship conducive to our interests, we would have done in Egypt in 2010 what Vladimir Putin is doing now in Syria: giving him arms and letting him slaughter his own people. Instead, we told him to step down. Iraq was a truly exceptional and bizarre case, and I'd be happy to discuss it in a separate thread, but suffice it to say it's immensely complicated.

There are cases like Uzbekistan, where we regrettably have to give money to awful people to maintain supply routes into Afghanistan. Or our close relationship with Saudi Arabia, which by any measure is an awful dictatorship. But you have to work and cooperate with the countries that exist, not the ones you wish existed. But when democracies appear, as they did in the Arab Spring, we always support them, even when they don't necessarily jive with our interests (see: Mursi government in Egypt).

You are totally right.
But I think that agression from US is just going to bring more suffering to the people. And more hate on the meadle east.

Ideally, of course we should. We've tried condemning Assad, demanding he leave, providing non-lethal aid to the rebels and the population, sanctions, UN resolutions, and other things. But when we're confronted with Russia's unnecessary, inane obstructionism in the pursuit of realpolitik in the UN Security Council, it doesn't help anyone.

Just as I said. The right way to do it is to change the UN, so the US move would be legitimated. Now, just as is, its not.

What countries are you talking about? I studied Latin American politics as an undergraduate and that's my area of focus. There are plenty of Latin American countries that don't do enough in the way of providing quality education (Chile and Mexico come to mind, although for different reasons), but I don't think any Latin American countries are "democratic dictatorships." Argentina, Venezuela, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and Paraguay have incredibly weak institutions and party systems, and their leaders tend to be somewhat authoritarian to varying degrees, but I'd be interested to know what you mean by this.

Sorry. language is a big barrier for explaining myself.
What I tried to synthesize can't be written on just few lines.
I can easily point some: Venezuela, Bolivia, and even Brasil.
Point me your work, perhaps we can share some great information =)
 
I'm chocked that so many people here seems to believe the "false flag"-theory in this.. that being said im not sure that i want US to intervene, but this shit is not a fucking conspiracy.
 
I'm chocked that so many people here seems to believe the "false flag"-theory in this.. that being said im not sure that i want US to intervene, but this shit is not a fucking conspiracy.

Some people look for the "complicated" in everything. It seems the world is not complex enough unless some secret society, some cabal of special interests trying to create a new world order, some evil mastermind (possibly holding a hairless cat with his right pinky extended towards his lips) playing the strings of the world like his marionettes, is behind each darkened corner.

The world has enough bogeymen without needing to create a more evil Dr. Evil.

But hey, I'm generally fine entertaining crazy on a forum - it's sometimes humorous ;)

mrbigglesworth.jpg
 
Some people look for the "complicated" in everything. It seems the world is not complex enough unless some secret society, some cabal of special interests trying to create a new world order, some evil mastermind (possibly holding a hairless cat with his right pinky extended towards his lips) playing the strings of the world like his marionettes, is behind each darkened corner.

The world has enough bogeymen without needing to create a more evil Dr. Evil.

But hey, I'm generally fine entertaining crazy on a forum - it's sometimes humorous ;)

There are conspiracies in the world, no doubt about it.. its a very small group of people sitting on the vast majority of this worlds assets, but saying things like that this is a false flag saddens me.

To me, thats denying the great injustices these people are living with each day.. having to see your own child and the children of your relatives and friends suffocate and convulse after being attacked with chemical weapons.

alanmoore.png
 
So well all agree "WMD's" should stayed banned right? Well, what good is a ban if no one will enforce it?

That's what I'm unclear about, was it in fact their government or the "rebels"?
 
^I think that's what they are trying to figure out right now.

I don't know why it sounds like a conspiracy theory, that the rebels may have caused it themself to get US and UN to help them wipe away the regime?

Not saying like it is like that, but it wouldn't be impossible.
 
Im not saying thats impossible, but people seem to think that this is all pretty much a hoax fabricated by the US.. but still i doubt that the rebels did this considering how they work and what resources they have.
But really i shouldn't post in here, i'm not really to interested in discussing this since i live in Sweden.. i will suffer enough shitstorms about it.
 
So well all agree "WMD's" should stayed banned right? Well, what good is a ban if no one will enforce it?

That's what I'm unclear about, was it in fact their government or the "rebels"?

Well, there's a decent amount of debate as to whether CBR (chemical, biological, radiological) are, in fact, WMD: http://thediplomat.com/the-naval-diplomat/2013/08/31/chemical-weapons-are-not-a-wmd/

And of course, the problem with a ban is that it's easy for Russia to agree to it in practice, because everyone loves happy global norms about not gassing people. But when it comes time to enforce it, the specifics of the situation, including global politics and the distribution of power in a zero-sum international system, frustrate efforts to actually enforce it, like you said.

Not to be a dick, but almost nobody except uninformed people thinks the rebels did this. They don't have the infrastructure, access, or technical capacity. The reason is that you have a bunch of precursor chemicals stored in different warehouses throughout Syria and around Damascus, and they're kept separate until they're assembled to produce sarin, VX, or what have you. Unless the rebels got access to all these facilities, and a laboratory massive enough to combine all of them, and the missiles and launching facilities to deliver them, they wouldn't be able to do this.

Plus, if that did happen, Assad would be begging for help, not just from Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah, but maybe even from the U.S. Terrorists with WMD (or just CBR in my opinion, but whatever floats your boat) is a big no-no for the U.S., and probably the only way we would ever cooperate with Assad on anything at this juncture. But the regime said nothing. And U.S. intelligence has signals intelligence (i.e., intercepted phone conversations) with senior Syrian officials discussing the attack and preparations for it. They even know who they think gave the order.

tl;dr the rebels definitely did not do this.
 
Not to be a dick, but almost nobody except uninformed people thinks the rebels did this. They don't have the infrastructure, access, or technical capacity. The reason is that you have a bunch of precursor chemicals stored in different warehouses throughout Syria and around Damascus, and they're kept separate until they're assembled to produce sarin, VX, or what have you. Unless the rebels got access to all these facilities, and a laboratory massive enough to combine all of them, and the missiles and launching facilities to deliver them, they wouldn't be able to do this.

One guy can create bombs in his shed... a whole organised army can't make a chemical weapon with all the dollar-dollar-bill-ya'll they have backing them?
 
I recently saw the 1976 film called "Network." I recommend watching it if you have yet to see it. There is a monologue toward the end of the film by Otis from Superman. He summarizes everything as it was in 1976, and still is today.

The sad fact is that this film was widely released and it clearly stated why things are the way they are. Yet no one gave a shit. No one did anything about it. That was 38 years ago. And people give even less of a shit today.

In the 1960s our parents fought for free speech (and information) and got their asses handed to them. Blacks got equality on paper but really they didn't get shit. They have a little more freedom than they used to but, in reality, in order for them to be successful, they usually need to change who they are and turn into honkeys, which isn't really freedom. Yes it's an overgeneralization but it's got some truth to it.

Point being it has been public knowledge for a long time that things are really fucked up and that the our government is a big puppet show. No news there.

The only news is that still, after all these years, no one gives a shit. And when they do, they start useless 99% protests which are poisoned by FBI and basically self-destructed. In the words of my avatar's father, "It is useless to resist." Sadly, many of you will label me a conspiracy theorist for my beliefs.

I don't know the point of all this shit I am writing. The bottom line is that there is only one thing that makes sense: We are animals. Humans are just animals and animals eat each other. And that is what's happening. Too fucking bad for our brothers in Syria because right now they are the weak in a survival contest of the fittest. And there is nothing you or I can do for them. No thread in a heavy metal forum will help them.
 
America nuked 2 cities and we have a moral obligation to put our foot down?
I don't disagree that it's important to question the validity of any moral high ground taken by the US government however I think the civilian casualties from this year are a far more relevant concern than 68 year old military decisions.
I don't think past wrongdoing necessarily disqualifies you from future action either.

edit: I just realized that I should have clarified "the civilian casualties from this year" to mean those caused by US military. WWII seems completely unrelated when you can weigh our choices against far more similar situations from the last decade. Personally I'd love for us to find a way to help in these situations that didn't involve the military. I'd love to hear some ideas on that.
 
America nuked 2 cities and we have a moral obligation to put our foot down?

That has nothing to do with the present situation. If our country was in a civil war and the president just started gassing your whole fucking town, would you want someone to step in and slow his role?
 
In the 1960s our parents fought for free speech (and information) and got their asses handed to them. Blacks got equality on paper but really they didn't get shit. They have a little more freedom than they used to but, in reality, in order for them to be successful, they usually need to change who they are and turn into honkeys, which isn't really freedom. Yes it's an overgeneralization but it's got some truth to it.

Point being it has been public knowledge for a long time that things are really fucked up and that the our government is a big puppet show. No news there.

The only news is that still, after all these years, no one gives a shit. And when they do, they start useless 99% protests which are poisoned by FBI and basically self-destructed. In the words of my avatar's father, "It is useless to resist." Sadly, many of you will label me a conspiracy theorist for my beliefs.
You don't do yourself any favors by cherry picking your facts and giving misinformation. The civil rights movement didn't accomplish anything? I went to school with black kids. I eat at restaurants with black friends. I sit next to black folks on busses and trains. I work with black people. I'd never imply things are perfect but to imply they barely changed is both delusional and dismissive of the work that millions of people put into making change happen.
"Network" is a great movie and did incredibly well when it came out. It's also the story of people taking advantage of a mentally ill man to make money.
 
Dude the Japanese bombed a naval/military area, obviously civilians were also killed, but we nuked two CITIES. We didn't bomb any type of military industrial complex. Based off of these current standards half of the fucking globe should have bombed us in retaliation. Yes we should stop them from killing their own people, I guess kind of like we did with North and South Vietnam.
 
Are you saying that the rules have changed in the last 75 years?

YES

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

We nuked Japan because they wouldn't surrender. WAY more japanese were killed through the conventional bombing of Tokyo than both of the nuclear attacks.. Rather than invade and suffer far greater numbers of casualties, the president chose to end things swiftly with nuclear attacks. Hopefully that never happens again. It shouldn't. But it's not like we're over here dropping nukes on people willy nilly and then not letting anyone else play. WW2 was a COMPLETELY different scenario.