Syria.

I went to a thing at the local college and listened to one of the last survivors from those bombings and she talked about certain members of her family dying years later after becoming crippling ill from that attack. Their bones turned brown and all kinds of fucked up shit. I'm in no way supporting/defending either attack, but nuclear weapons are on a completely different level. It also makes no sense for us to bomb the fucking country either. Obviously we'd kill innocent people to in the process, and for what? Because he's already been killing them? You realize in Vietnam they call the Vietnam War "the American War" right?
 
I went to a thing at the local college and listened to one of the last survivors from those bombings and she talked about certain members of her family dying years later after becoming crippling ill from that attack. Their bones turned brown and all kinds of fucked up shit. I'm in no way supporting/defending either attack, but nuclear weapons are on a completely different level. It also makes no sense for us to bomb the fucking country either. Obviously we'd kill innocent people to in the process, and for what? Because he's already been killing them? You realize in Vietnam they call the Vietnam War "the American War" right?

Read about the Rape of Nanking. The Japanese Empire acted absolutely despicably for much of the first half of the 20th century, and discussing the moral rectitude of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki without mentioning that is a bit one-sided.

There's a lot of historical debate as to whether Japan would have surrendered without any atomic bombings, or after the first, or whatever. It's an immensely complex subject. But regardless, we'd be using Tomahawk missiles in Syria, almost certainly to target regime military assets like bunkers, storage depots, etc.- not nuclear weapons, and not bombs. Insofar as you can have a "clean" strike without any civilian casualties, Tomahawks are probably the best option. President Obama has explicitly said he doesn't want to make Assad lose the war (which is kind of lolable in and of itself, let's be honest), but rather to prevent him from being able to use chemical weapons again.
 
That has nothing to do with the present situation. If our country was in a civil war and the president just started gassing your whole fucking town, would you want someone to step in and slow his role?

Well thats quite an assumption... You asked the civils if they prefer US intervention? The intervention may create more harm...
Why not check what Iraq civils thinks about US war? Before the democracy, Saddan killed a lot of civillians, used gas, etc. But, as far as I know, Iraqians hates the US intervention.
Especially when Saddan regime ended and US didn't gave the government back to Iraq civils... Breaking sovereignty again...
How about all those human rights violations US did? Tortured prisioneers, acusations of rape?

Just for rethorical purposes, if US is legitimated to interfere on Syria at this point, just for the civil war (investigations on gas are not fully prooved yet, through the complex process).
About Syria, why not prepare the rebels, just as US did with Al Qaeda?

C'mon guys. If the Sarin GAS gets strictly prooved (thats why its contested by other countries like UK, Russia, China), then intervention is legal.
But until then, any unilateral decision from US is agression. Period.
People will get killed by Syria's regime, by the rebels and by US army.

US should respect the international due legal process.
If international community at UN decides its not OK to interfere, US will commit agression. We are talking about outlaw here.

Thinking intervention is right just because "is justice, or that's whats correct to do" does not legitimate the action.

Just think this way: When a person kills another, and the proof is not exact, but there is some verisimilitude of the authorship, and the jury absolves him.
Are people legitimated to kill/impose sanctions after? No.
The same applies to US, in a macro view of the situation.
 
The US has been associated with evil since white man killed the Indians, stole their land and forced them onto reservations. I found no way to justify dropping nukes on cities of innocent people, regardless of what the government has done. The US and its armed forces are looked at from most of the world as terrorists. If other countries thought like what is trying to be justified now we would have been bombed many, many years ago. We obviously fought against the Nazi's during WWII, but after the war we snuck a number of horrible people into our country and they went onto to do very "American" things (CDC, Nasa). Think about it, if we're going to start holding people responsible for their actions, people are going to start doing the same with us.
 
You don't have to look as far back as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, just look at what the US Government did with Iraq in the 90's.
They have the blood of over 500,000 children on their hands but the US Government believes that those deaths were "worth it".

 
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C'mon guys. If the Sarin GAS gets strictly prooved (thats why its contested by other countries like UK, Russia, China), then intervention is legal.

Two out of the three countries have financial reasons to contest any intervention.

Russia's sales of arms to Syria accounts for about 10% of it's current global arms sales. Current contracts are estimated at 1.5 billion dollars.

China has been rated as Syria's third largest importer. As such they have blocked even the use of sanctions that would have financial impacts to them.

While I'm not saying these are the only reasons for two out of the three countries you list as contesting intervention, it must be factored in with more than just a passing belief that their support is solely the result of altruistic reasons.

Along with Iran, those two are the primary supporters with questionable (possibly less than humanitarian) reasons to resist intervention.

All that being said - I'm still as conflicted as I was when this subject was posed by the OP. Just providing context.
 
That's precisely the problem. The U.S. says, "Global institutions are broken; Russia is unwilling to do anything, ever, in the UN Security Council." And fenixdoido is saying, "Let the international community work it out." Well, unfortunately, the international community works through institutions, and Russia wants those institutions to basically be an extension of Russia. So does the U.S., but where I part ways with fenixdoido is when I genuinely say that the U.S. has completely altruistic intentions in this case. We just want the war to end and Syrians to live in a well-functioning democracy. Are there economic interests? I don't know, probably. But who cares? We want what's best for Syria, and Russia wants the opposite just because Putin is paranoid about U.S. influence. So the choice is either literally doing nothing, or, yes, breaking international law by intervening. (Unless you believe in the Responsibility to Protect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect)

I'm not talking about the Cold War! I'm talking about what the U.S. wants for Syria, and all countries in the post-Cold War world. We like democracies because we trust them, they aren't skeevy, they don't murder their own people, they don't attack us, and we uphold democratic values as an international norm. The U.S. clearly wants that for Syria, and Russia clearly doesn't. That's what makes us different, and that's why American policymakers (not citizens, honestly) feel justified in using some sort of military force against the Assad government.

But that's why the U.S. is at least trying to work through NATO, to provide it with some international legitimacy. We would be going for a peace conference if the other belligerent parties weren't a mass murderer, Vladimir Putin, and Iran.
 
We like democracies because we trust them, they aren't skeevy, they don't murder their own people, they don't attack us, and we uphold democratic values as an international norm.

While I get the gist of what your attempting to communicate, I'm a little more hesitant to go as far as to say your statement above with a completely straight face ;)

I'd probably reword it to:

We like democracies (as long as we believe the elected official is aligned with our general world view) because we trust them (at least we present the front that we trust them all the while monitoring their communications, spying on their government installations,...), they aren't skeevy (unless they are), they don't murder their own people (ummmmm.... OK, if you say so - we have had a few recent questionable drone strikes on American citizens with sketchy legal precedence), they don't attack us, and we uphold democratic values as an international norm (see the first parenthesized notation).

As I said, I get what it is your attempting to communicate, I just can't paint it in as black and white a color pallet as you are. The world, including our country, is a very very grey and fuzzy place.
 
While I get the gist of what your attempting to communicate, I'm a little more hesitant to go as far as to say your statement above with a completely straight face ;)

I'd probably reword it to:



As I said, I get what it is your attempting to communicate, I just can't paint it in as black and white a color pallet as you are. The world, including our country, is a very very grey and fuzzy place.

Likewise, I understand your point that things can be gray at times, but I'm talking in terms of the United States' major strategic goals. First and foremost aong those is fostering strong democracies. I'm talking about this mainly in the context of democratic peace theory, which almost every president has espoused, particularly since the end of the Cold War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

We're always going to have bumpy relationships and arguments with countries, and every country is going to have its financial and security interests that conflict at times. But if you look at a map, our closest allies, and the countries that are doing best, are democracies. The UK, New Zealand, Canada, France, Germany, Australia, Italy, Spain, etc. Likewise, the countries we're closest to in Latin America are strong democracies: Mexico, Costa Rica, Chile, Colombia, Brazil. Follow this around the world and you'll see South Korea, Taiwan, Turkey (although notsomuch recently), South Africa, etc.

Aside from our relationships with some incredibly messed up but strategically critical countries that we have to work with (Saudi Arabia and Pakistan come to mind, although Pakistan is technically a democracy), that's how we make our foreign policy. We may sometimes criticize those who challenge U.S. economic and/or political interests, but in almost every case it's because they're also violating democratic principles. The Chávez government is a perfect example. There's an incredibly strong correlation between acting in an authoritarian manner and not supporting the types of values the United States supports internationally. Chávez, Khamenei, Mursi, Gaddafi, Putin, Ortega, the former Burmese junta, etc. Take your pick.

And re: spying on them, literally every country does that. I hate to sound so callous, but that's how it is. France has been stealing industrial secrets from G8 countries for decades. India spies on everybody. We share intelligence among the Five Eyes (New Zealand, UK, Canada, Australia, and the U.S.) and there's a mutual pact in which we've agreed not to spy on one another, but I don't think we should punish U.S. intelligence for doing their job, which is to read other peoples' mail. The scope of it probably needs to be reduced, but the collection is part of their mission. The Brits tapped the undersea correspondence cables in the 1920s, but nobody cares about that now :loco:

Sorry about all these walls of text haha. tl;dr democracies are great, we like them, and everybody spies on everybody.
 
"What if" the rebels did the attack?
US will do another IRAQ here?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IXlumIxYvQ

In doubt, US should not attack.

I don't know why US is not affraid of international retaliation too.
If the same scneario happnend with my country (Brasil) invading another, I'm sure we would suffer war.
Let's hope this amount of shit don't get too big... Imagine the worst case scenario: US against Syria, followed by France and Israel.
Russia, China, UK against US operation.
Iran follow Syria.
If just one of those uses a nuke...
 
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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkamZg68jpk&feature=c4-overview&list=UUEHsSWvrGVSIA63OV3J6vhA[/ame]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/syrian-rebels-admit-to-being-behind-chemical-weapons-attack/5347424

It's hard to know what to say to someone who believes this war is poised to be some errant display of American altruism. This is far from the first time your country has gone to war under false pretenses, and it likely won't be the last. It's hard to understand what sort of indoctrination would be so utterly effective that people would attempt to justify away the well established patterns and very truth in front of their own eyes.
 
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I'm chocked that so many people here seems to believe the "false flag"-theory in this.. that being said im not sure that i want US to intervene, but this shit is not a fucking conspiracy.


The only thing sad or shocking -to an extent- is how the average person is so willing to swallow whole any pile of turd the mainstream media shoves down their throat: No questions asked, no matter how absurd, illogical, or devoid of coherent reasons it may seem.


sheep-dog-trials-im-telling-you-the-man-and-the-do1.jpg



FYI it IS a false flag, because it would not be logic AT ALL for Assad (who isn't a 'saint', granted) to bring upon himself a shitload of international military intervention by using chemical weapons on his own people, whilst at the same time fighting Al-Qaeda, AND doing so on the very same day the UN inspectors traveled over there.. that makes literally NO sense whatsoever.

It makes more sense that the chemical attack was carried out as a response by the rebels (who have been losing ground to the Syrian army), and want to draw the US and others into the conflict, in order to overthrow the Syrian government, and then secure a strong foothold in the country, once those foreign military efforts pull back.


Syria is seen (by the international community at large) as a stepping point into Iran. Syria and Iran currently share mutual defense agreements, and attacking Syria could be aimed at provoking a reaction from Iran. Any pretext to start up shit with them, too. That is why Putin and China have started to make declarations the past couple of days.

Iran is the main source of oil for China and Russia, amongst others. Russia has vast oil reserves in the north, deep under ice, but it still makes more sense for them on a number of levels to buy from Iran.
If Obama really thinks he can take away Iran's oil from China and Russia, he really has another thing coming..
(I don't think he really believes that, though).


Obama will keep trying to help Al-Qaeda in Syria any way he can apparently, AND on taxpayer's expense.. I think that's kind of ironic.
 
^ Yeah. It irks me that people throw around the word ''conspiracy'' at anything and everything contrary to the gospel of government/mainstream media, without even bothering to look at things more objectively first.


Well, at least we won't be thrown into a burning stake for it, nowadays :lol:
 
Have all the US citizens answered and said their mightful thoughts already? Can other people tell their lesser ramblings now or is it our turn yet?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BdQa3rDse0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkamZg68jpk&feature=c4-overview&list=UUEHsSWvrGVSIA63OV3J6vhA

http://www.globalresearch.ca/syrian-rebels-admit-to-being-behind-chemical-weapons-attack/5347424

It's hard to know what to say to someone who believes this war is poised to be some errant display of American altruism. This is far from the first time your country has gone to war under false pretenses, and it likely won't be the last. It's hard to understand what sort of indoctrination would be so utterly effective that people would attempt to justify away the well established patterns and very truth in front of their own eyes.

Okay, or tell me I'm a brain-dead sheep person. That works too I suppose. :rolleyes:

If Obama really thinks he can take away Iran's oil from China and Russia, he really has another thing coming..
(I don't think he really believes that, though).

Buying oil from Iran is already illegal under the UN sanctions that both China and Russia voted for in 2010. They both are making some attempts to evade the sanctions, but for the most part, they're abiding by them and restricting their supplies. Also...Russia has an enormous gas and oil trade surplus. It's not true that Iran's oil matters very much to Putin. It matters more to China, all things being equal.
 
But the idea that chemical weapons are weapons of mass destruction is a global norm. We didn't make it up as a pretext to invade. We've done essentially nothing for 2 years because we have no interest in getting involved. Obama explicitly said, "We won't do anything unless Assad uses chemical weapons," and he did precisely that.

And for you guys who think we're making it up, the numbers vary, but only around 9% of Americans want to intervene in Syria. I'm sure the UN tissue samples will back it up in a couple of days, but the regime definitely used sarin or VX or some other nerve agent.
This is so ironic talking about chemical weapons: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzbh7b9flsQ&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLI46g-I12_9p7quGXXanTK2zEWLiOZQvZ[/ame]

"The US military sprayed about twelve percent of the land of Vietnam from about 1961 to 1971 and it's estimated that millions of Vietnamese and Americans aswell and Vietnamese-Americans were exposed to Agent Orange ... one of the most dangerous chemicals known to science."
 
^ Yeah. It irks me that people throw around the word ''conspiracy'' at anything and everything contrary to the gospel of government/mainstream media, without even bothering to look at things more objectively first.


Well, at least we won't be thrown into a burning stake for it, nowadays :lol:

As well as not being able to spot the obvious, you're also not able to see sarcasm it seems :)