Thank You

I agree with both of you, Satori and Opet. I haven't th slightest problem with people deciding to be happy, despite the fact many of the reasons are rather silly. Few people have a sound reason to be happy, so it's best to try to be happy for no reason as often as possible.

I have never been a person to give gifts on Christmas. I ask nothing of other people, and if I want to give someone something, I will get it on my own time, not when advertisements tell me I should. I have tried to get gifts for everyone one Christmas, and it was annoying as hell trying to either guess at what a person wanted, or to ask him. Both, I think, are obnoxious, and in those cases, the gift-giving loses it's point. Only one gift, that Christmas, came from the heart. My siblings had been wanting a CD burner for a while, so I got them the best one on the market, (HP all the way!). I knew they weren't expecting it, and that's why I wanted to do it.
 
i totally understand everything you're saying...and i think here's what it comes down to: WHETHER OR NOT YOU LIKE TO SHOP! :lol: If I'm not buying for other people, I'll just be buying for myself, so either way, I'm falling for the "system." I agree it sucks to feel obligated to buy presents for certain people, but I really get a lot of enjoyment out of finding the perfect gift for someone. And even if the season cheeriness is bullshit, it's still better than the ghetto attitudes I usually deal with around here. And I think deep down I'm just a cheesy housewife -- I get a kick out of pumpkin carving, christmas cookie baking, wrapping, decorating the tree, all that crap. :loco: I'm in a state of euphoria from Halloween through New Years. So screw all of you! :rolleyes:
 
Lina, tsk, tsk, screw all of us? Is that any language for a young lady? Has society and the church taught you nothing? muwahahah... :) Also, as you might suspect, I hate shopping, I just find it so commercial and fake and it makes me ill, particularly during xmas. I'm not orginally from a big city but I live in one now and the blatant commercialism is something I still haven't been able to stomach. I particularly dislike shopping for clothes and xmas gifts. I do like shopping for shit like electronics, cars, applicances, and drum stuff however.

Anyway, Opet made a good point about cards. Fuck, I cannot express how much I absolutely hate cards. They make me ill. When I get a card from say my mom in the mail I am so disgusted that I can't even bring myself to read it. I take it out of the envelop without looking at the front, which usually reads something like "For my wonderful son.." or some equally cheesy crap with flowers, a pic of an old farm, or whatever. It's horrible. I then open the card and check to see if there's any pics in there, failing that, I glance to see if there's a hand-written message, but typically there's just "love mom/dad/aunt agatha/whatever". Then I promptly dispose of the card (recycled of course, I think anyone who doesn't recycle at every opportunity should be beaten, sodomized (unless they happen to like that of course), and finally shot).

My phobia about cards is limitless. I have a great deal of trouble even walking into a Hallmark store, particularly on the bullshit holidays like mother's day. When I do have to get a card, I always go to the blank card section and pic one with a cool pic on it, then I write a little witty commentary inside the card and send it off. I don't enjoy this, but at least I don't puke and hate myself afterwards like a cheap whore with jizz in her nostrils (note to the ladies out there, keep your head straight, never lean back, hahah).

Me thinks it ties into the obligation thing, in this way. In my ass-backward little family, the giving of cards is a very big deal. Cards are expected on any and every holiday from all immediate family members. Example: Once my older sister informed me that she was not sending our brother a birthday card because he didn't send her one on her birthday. Oh my fuck. It makes me sick that she actually thought about that enough to notice it, and then dwelled on it for months till his b-day rolled around, and then felt that she was getting some kind of revenge on him my not sending him a card. I was like "sister dear, do you think the actually gives a fuck if you don't send him a card? Do you think he'll even notice? Do you think he even remembers not sending you a card?" Unfortunately, these questions were too complex for her and she couldn't see past her absolutely pointless anger. My mother is even worse in this regard. Heaven forbid that one of her 7 kids misses sending her a card on mother's day or something, she keeps a very precise mental diary of this, you'd think we bitch-slapped her or something, she takes it as a personal insult. I don't like being obligated to send cards just to not insult someone. That's so stupid. People are suffering in much of the world and we idiots in the industrialized nations have nothing better to do than to bitch about who didn't send us a card. It's shameful, pointless, selfish, and just fucking stupid. People need to grow up.

What I find even sicker is that people who live together even buy each other cards. Man that's lame. And what about the fact that in every workplace there are fanatics who just have to give everyone a card at xmas and then grumble about the fact that they gave out 50 cards and only received 3 or something. What a waste of life. So selfish, and pointless.

To me, cards embody everthing that is wrong about our social interaction. Instead of being themselves, people feel they have to adhere to some bullshit ideal (fuck you ann landers) to not piss off other people. The goal of "not pissing off others" should not be the objective. People shouldn't scrutinize others for not adhering to the same bullshit rituals that they do, it just creates anarchy. People go about their lives looking for something to get pissed off about, and for these people, not getting a card, not saying "how are you?" (puke) when meeting, not saying "shall I bring anything?" when invited over to dinner (or supper if you are a newf), all these things are justification for hatred and anarchy for no fucking reason. I hate that. It makes me sick the people behave so shittily towards each other. Life is too short and too precious for that crap.

There, I've ranted.

Satori
 
Oh dear, shopping.. *pours a cauldron of saliva down the drain due to nausea*

I hate shopping centres because they're always crowded with silly people who stop in front of every window to look at some piece of clothing or "Oh look at that card! How lovely!"

Shopping itself is utterly boring and frustrating; that's why I never buy anything as present, except for an occasional wine bottle. :)

I even hate record shops, the shuffling and looking for a certain CD. The only kind of "shopping" I like is pondering at the liquor store what brand I should, and instrument shops. I definately have a weak spot for technical gadgets with lots of buttons on them, as well as drum hardware. *drool* :)

I don't go into music shops very often, though, since I can rarely afford anything they have. :heh:
 
Originally posted by Satori
I don't enjoy this, but at least I don't puke and hate myself afterwards like a cheap whore with jizz in her nostrils (note to the ladies out there, keep your head straight, never lean back, hahah).
oh my. :lol: :lol: :lol:

p.s. -- Your fiance may claim otherwise, but every time you fail to recognize an important date with some gesture (doesn't have to be a card), she tucks that away in her head and begins to resent you. :p
 
Sure...it's human nature, right? To expect a steady flowing reminder that they are still loved by you. I guess some see past it/get over it somehow. I expect things. Of course, I hate myself when I realize it for being a part of the madness. :rolleyes:

I guess it would all be fine and dandy if everything wasn't taken to the extreme in this sense. I think one of the worst feelings in the world is when someone close to you is angry/hurt (like Satori’s example with the mother's day card) that you didn't BUY them something because this day is labeled somehow by the rest of worlds "need" for it. That happened to me last year.

Wouldn't ya know it. As soon as I this thread came up and the pumpkins started lining the sides of the streets everywhere for sale, my roommate starts up with the holiday depression again. :s I want to go hide in a corner. I'm going to try again this year to find the happy medium between holiday celebration and protest. ugh...
 
Originally posted by Lina
oh my. :lol: :lol: :lol:

p.s. -- Your fiance may claim otherwise, but every time you fail to recognize an important date with some gesture (doesn't have to be a card), she tucks that away in her head and begins to resent you. :p

Yea no shit. Why are women like this? I have a theory but I'd like to hear your response first. I so hate anniversaries and valentines day too. I wish I didn't have to participate in what I regard as silly rituals (including my own birthday). Personally, I would never expect a girl to get all gung-ho about looking at stereo equipment or listening to aggressive music or something, yet men are expected to fake interest in valentines day (something so fake, mindless, and blatantly commercial that it makes my stomach turn). What the fuck? Let's say I was into hunting or something (I'm not), I won't not expect a girl to fake interest in hunting for my benefit. Maybe hunting makes her sick and goes against the strongest of convictions (like valentines makes me sick and goes against my strongest of convictions). As hard as I try, I just can't bring myself to participate, just the thought of it makes me cringe and it also makes me feel stupid, fake, forced, cheapened, dumb, and like a mindless drone of an industry which is bent on making everyone (particularly women) that valentines day is this big fucking deal. It is not. It's complete bullshit. If I want to spend time with my loved one then I want to do it when it's best for us, whenever the mood strikes, and I think it's pathetic that society tries to dictate our behaviour on this day and if we don't follow along we are branded as bastards. Also, I get the feeling that the reason so many women make such a big fucking deal about valentines day and expect crap and special treatment from their lovers is cuz the next day everyone will be asking her "what did you do for valentines" and she can't just saying "nothing" cuz then society will frown on her for being different and not participating in this obligatory bullshit. That's stupid. Ok, I'm going to have to throw up now.

As anyone can probably tell, I'm not a fake person, I'm very upfront and just myself (except when I do the evil and sarcastic bastard thing, heh) and that's why I simply can't bring myself to play along with rituals that I personally regard as commercial nonsense designed for the purpose of separating us from our money. I don't "fake it". If someone doesn't like me for being me then I really don't care since I probably wouldn't like them much either if they judge me by my ablity to swallow my convictions and fake not being queasy when I'm about to hurl.

To all the ladies who may be reading this: What's this big affectation for valentine's day? And is your passion for this day and all that it brings worth having your man FAKE interest just to appease you, like you were a child who can't handle the truth? I'd be insulted if someone faked interest in something I liked just to not get my knickers all in knots. (Btw, men generally dislike valentine's day and they DO fake interest for your benefit, whether you realize this or not it's true (unless he's gay), sorry to burst your bubble. Doesn't it piss you off that your man thinks so little of your intellect that he feels he has to lie (fake) to you just so you don't get pissed off at him for something as stupid as his inabilty to be a drone to a tradition?)

Satori

PS: fuck valentine's day and all that crap that goes with it. No one dictates my behaviour to me or tells me when I have to show affection to my lover. bleh.
 
Originally posted by Satori
Yea no shit. Why are women like this?
shit! i was hoping opet would take a stab at this first and get me off the hook! :D

satori, i have absolutely nothing to say that will make sense or change your mind. and i certainly don't speak for all girls, just me.

even though i pride myself on not being overly emotional -- quite unromantic and very sensible -- in my political, religious, etc, opinions (i have a bigger porn collection that my boyfriend for god's sake!) i still very much want these little tokens of love. i know, gag. :rolleyes:

now, if you just don't like society-designated holidays and, instead, do sweet things for your girl spontaneously, that's fine, that's very cool. but if there are no romantic little surprises EVER, then the girl starts to feel like she's just your "buddy" with...ahem...benefits.

i don't know why this is, and i guess we'll just have to chalk it up to the different chemical makeups of men and women. apparently most guys don't need this kind of constant reinforcement, but girls do.

and to answer your question, yes, i would prefer my guy do something fake (if he knows it would make me happy) rather than nothing at all. and don't think of it as being FAKE. think of it as being nice. i mean, i'm sure you ramble to your girlfriend about all kinds of things she's not interested in. would you prefer that she be fake (i.e., show some interest and engage in a conversation) or would you prefer that she say, "you're boring me, stop talking"?

so, if you just don't like the idea of having to prove your love by BUYING stuff, that's legit. but if you're using it as an excuse to just never have to do something you don't want to do (i.e., showing more affection than you yourself would need), then that's kinda selfish, i think. i mean, when she does something nice for you, don't you think, "awwww, i'm so lucky, wow, that made my day"? well, it's only natural that girls want to feel that too!

about valentine's day, i definitely agree with you that it's complete bullshit...but i've been socialized into wanting some sweet acknowledgment of the day. i know it's silly. this is what i meant when i said at the beginning that i have no good answer. :loco: damn.
 
Just a little commentary:

Why do women love to shop for many little things for hours and hours? Why do men hate shopping for little things so much that they'll go around with holes in his drawers, saving up all his money for that big ticket item (ie. car, house, new cd player, etc)?

Like everything else, all our little quirks have a genetic/evolutionary component. We are who we evolved to be.

Humans evolved in hunter/gatherer societies. The females did most of the gathering (fruits, shrubs, etc). So the females from which we evolved had this desire to acquire (shop) for many small things. This desire is still there in modern women. Nothing makes a women happier than a successful (and typically long) shopping trip in which she got many different types of items (a variety of fruits, nuts, shrubs, etc).

The male primates were psychologically designed for hunting. They would only gather till they had enough to eat at the time and then their attention would return to hunting (which explains how a man has little trouble picking up something he immediately needs, like a new toothbrush or astroglide or something, but most guys cannot wander around a mall for hours looking at shoes or something he already HAS). When a guy is hungry, he gathers enough to fill his tummy (if I need shoes I'll go buy shoes and only shoes, and I'm not very patient about it, I don't want to browse, I just want shoes now dammit), but if he isn't hungry, he's not going to gather cuz his mind is focused on hunting (his genetic disposition). A man will avoid gathering (shopping) at every opportunity (unless he is immediately hungry), instead saving his energy (money) for that big ticket item, a 400kg buffalo (a car).

This also explains why women like sweet things like candy much much more than men and why women have an urge to eat small yet frequent amounts of food (ever been to a U-pick strawberry farm? Hard not to eat every third berry you pick eh?). The last place I worked all the women had tonnes and tonnes of snacky foods and sweets at their desks and they snacked all day long and sucked on candies (like a primate would do while gathering) and no man had any food at their desks at all. The women always offered the men food, but they were rarely ever interested, something which puzzled the women, unless of course they were hungry in which case they'd scam a shit load of the heaviest food the women had (usually potatoe chips) and eat it all very fast and then not want anything afterwards. Meanwhile, the women continued eating throughout the day. Men are different. Men evolved to eat a few huge meals a day, like when someone in the tribe scored some animal flesh. Men love meat and high fat foods a lot and aren't into sweets that much. Women will typically eat less than men at a meal (even if they are the same size) cuz the women have been snacking (while gathering) throughout the day and simply aren't as hungry. The men have been out hunting and while they hunt, they don't eat cuz it retracts from the hunt. That's why men don't snack at work very much, if ever, unless they are starving and even then they don't want to snack, they want a steak or something, not candies.

Consider this, a woman takes a man shopping. The woman wants to go into many stores and gather many small things, even if she doesn't need them, the thill of buying them is sometimes enough justification for buying them. After an hour or two of looking at shoes, hair assessories, makeup, shampoo, and underwear, the man is about ready to have a nervous break-down. Why? Well the man is focused on hunting, he's got his spear in his hand and he's looking looking looking for something big to kill and roast over the fire while the other tribe members congradulate him on another great kill. So when a women takes a man shopping, picture a male primate out in the bush looking at nuts and berries. He can't spear a berry, he's not happy, and soon that unhappiness turns to aggitation cuz he's wasting valuble hunting time.

Consider this as well, a man takes a woman shopping for a big-ticket item like a car or a stereo. The man is now hunting, he is happy, his brain cells are rewarding him for this behaviour with pleasure and happiness. But an item such as a car takes time to pick out, it's not something you can rush into like selecting hair clips. The man is patiently looking for the right buck to spear, one he can kill easily but not too easily cuz he wants to get as much meat as possible for his efforts. Meanwhile, the woman is miserable, she's looking for berries and their aren't any. The man buys a car and his shopping urge is fulfilled for a long time, until he needs his next big ticket item (until his next meat craving). A women's urge to shop is never fulfilled for very long, that's the thing about gathering, the thrill wears off quicker.

Here's a common situation that starts arguments between men and women: they go the mall or whatever, he's looking for a new portable cd player cuz the one he had finally broke, she's looking for new shoes even though she already has 12 pairs at home. The man considers his big ticket item infinitely more important than the women getting a 13th pair of shoes. The women believes that she actually needs more shoes (not "wants", *needs*) and for her that's way more important that some crusty old discman. The man will spend about 15 mins and maybe visit 2 or 3 shops before scoring the cd player. The women will spend many many hours and visit/re-visit every shoe store in a 10 km radius looking for shoes. Meanwhile, the man becomes very aggitated, his stomach is full of flesh and he doesn't want to stare at berries for that long when he could be hunting or resting up for the next hunt. Eventually he says something, and of course the reply is "well you got your cd player", and the man thinks "yea, it took me 15 mins and it's something I actually needed, unlike shoes". This pisses off the women cuz he's actually saying that gathering is stupid unless you are hungry (you don't need shoes unless you are practically barefoot). They cannot see eye to eye on this.

The solution? Shop separately. Men hunt and women gather and each annoys the other with their conflicting styles of aquisition. For the guys, if you need something small, like a new toothbrush (not a "hunt" item) then go alone, if you go with a woman, even if she "says" she isn't looking for anything, you'll probably end up spending the entire afternoon wandering through the mall looking at shit and it'll drive you nuts cuz you thought you were just going to get the toothbrush and leave, which takes about 10 mins, not 2 hours. For the women, don't take your man with you shopping (unless he's gay, in which case you need a new man). The guy will not share in your joy of gathering and he'll just piss you off by constantly asking: "are you done yet? can we leave now?". Don't take it personally that he's not into looking at women's shoes and underwear for hours, it doesn't mean he doesn't love you, it doesn't mean he doesn't like to spend time with you, he just isn't designed for that. Would you like to spend 2 or 3 hours looking a golf clubs? Probably not. It works both ways. The only difference is that when men see what they want they take out their spear and kill it, and that only takes a few seconds (I can pick out a toothbrush in about 10 seconds). Women are more selective, they like to browse more, they like to spend more time finding just the right fruits, perfectly ripe with a nice colour. The woman's quirk ensures that we all get enough sugar and vitamin C. The man's quirk ensures that we all get enough protein and fat. Each is very important, but this doesn't mean that the men should take their women hunting, nor does it mean that women should take their men gathering. We are a lot happier when we separate for such task just like our ancestors did.

We are who we evolved to be. Understanding this, we can avoid many of the stupid arguments we have with our partners while shopping. Life is too short and too precious for that kind of senseless bullshit.

Satori
 
Originally posted by Lina
about valentine's day, i definitely agree with you that it's complete bullshit...but i've been socialized into wanting some sweet acknowledgment of the day. i know it's silly. this is what i meant when i said at the beginning that i have no good answer. :loco: damn.

Actually, you explained quite a lot there and I've learned a lot from what you wrote (me guy, duh). I guess I'll just have to try harder to look past the cheesiness of it for the sake of the greater good. Thanks for the great perspective. You are certainly a smarty-pants, hehe:)

That thing you said about the need for constant reinforcement was quite cool. That's what I was going to say actually. I think this has an evoutionary origin as well. Males are dominate by nature. Primates live in societies with one or a few dominate males who get to do all the females, just like lions. The man's ego is stroked entirely by maintaining this dominance and as long as he does, he knows the female(s) will be there to provide his monkey member with a parking spot (the real and only "point" to life - to pass on one's genes). The female primate must compete to win the males attention/protection cuz the dominate male which she is infatuated with is a busy ape, fucking other females and hunting and such, his time is valuable. The female primates also fight for dominance, not with violence and killing the most buffalo like the males, but by kissing the ass of the dominate male so that he protects her and her offsping. For this reason, the female primate is forever looking for signals to indicate that she is the favoured female, it makes he feel better about her own survival. The female wants to be noticed by the male, thus the desire to get his attention so that he remembers who "da momma" is when it's important. The constant question "do you love me?" is actually (I think) the means by which the female ensures she is always in the forefront of the male's mind. The male's genetic survival is not dependent on what the females think of him, it's dependent on who's ass he can kick and how much meat he can score. The male doesn't need to hear that he is adored, as long as he can keep other males away from his female, he knows he's going to pass on his genes. This is why I think men are attacted to physical beauty (denoting good genes) and women are most attracted to power and traits of dominance (independence, guts, balls). No girl likes a whimpy man. How sexy is Jean Luc Picard? If I were a woman I'd do him, even though he's no brad pitt, hhehehe.

So while the woman is busy thinking, "does he love me?", the male is busy keeping an eye out for other males who may try to impregnate his female, he's not thinking "does she love me?", as long as he remains dominate in the tribe, he is confident she loves him and never needs to hear it.

I don't even think men are capable of "love" in the same way as females. For men (not boys, boys are more female in their thoughts than men), love is expressed somewhat as an urge to dominate and protect. It's no surprise that women get off on being dominated and protected, at least all the one's I've been with anyway, hehe.

Of course, we all have each other's traits too, men can love and women can be violent, just to a lesser extent. We are after all one organism split into 2 halves. Men have nipples (and even mammory glands) and women have orgasms, even though neither are necessary for the propogation of the species.

Satori the modern primate
 
i think all of that makes perfect sense. wow, if only we could get some of those anti-evolution idiots in here. well...maybe i'd rather keep them away. ;)

something random just popped into my head: my annoyance at these girls who try to act like they're just as sex-driven as men. you know, the ones who go to strip clubs and scream and whistle and girate, etc. it's such a pathetic display of "girl power." ick. women see men doing it, so in an attempt to be equal to men they stoop to men's level. :rolleyes: when men go to strip clubs, they're thinking about fucking the broads on the poles. when women go to strip clubs, it's all about "girls' night out" and showing each other up by dancing with the strippers. in fact, do full-nudity male strip joints even exist??? not that i know of.

by no means am i saying the woman belongs in the kitchen, but i hate when people deny that men and women simply have different chemical makeups and instincts.

everyone rags on it, but loveline is a great radio show. listen to a week of loveline and you will learn soooo much about human nature. people just make the same mistakes over and over and over because we never address the differences between men and women. how many relationships have failed because the man can't understand the woman's behavior and vice versa?!

sorry i'm just completely rambling. i bet soul4raziel had NO idea what he was starting. :D
 
Originally posted by Lina
i think all of that makes perfect sense. wow, if only we could get some of those anti-evolution idiots in here. well...maybe i'd rather keep them away. ;)

I think so too, usually it's fun to dialog about such things with those in disagreement, but there isn't too much competition here in that regard, so it's not as fun.

[something random just popped into my head: my annoyance at these girls who try to act like they're just as sex-driven as men. you know, the ones who go to strip clubs and scream and whistle and girate, etc. it's such a pathetic display of "girl power." ick. women see men doing it, so in an attempt to be equal to men they stoop to men's level.

I never thought about this before, interesting perspective, had I seen it myself I'm sure I'd have the same take on it as you do. I'm not as sure about the "stoop to men's level" line however, though I can certainly understand that that's how it must appear to women when they see drunken idiots hollering at some stripper chick. Alcohol and testoterone is a dangerous mixture (and unfortuantely one that occurs much too often). Something about men is that when a guy is in hunt mode with his schlong his brain stops functioning. Perhaps you've heard the old line that when guy gets a hard-on all the blood moves from the brain to the crotch. I can assure you, this is what happens! (not literally of course). The stuff that goes through a guy's head when he's horney, we truly are sexual predators.


when men go to strip clubs, they're thinking about fucking the broads on the poles.

Gasp! Who told you?! hehe


when women go to strip clubs, it's all about "girls' night out" and showing each other up by dancing with the strippers. in fact, do full-nudity male strip joints even exist??? not that i know of.

You mean there are male strip joints without full nudity? Wow, I never knew that. Some of the states have to just relax about the sex laws, fuck, this isn't the dark ages, we all know that dicks, bizarre as they are, are not evil or obscene. I know this, I even sport one myself. muwhaha. Anyway, in Canada's coolest city Montreal and even some places in Toronto (particularly the underground male queer clubs, as my gay friend has informed me) not only do they get naked, for the last song of their set the come out and pull themselves till they jizz on the stage, in a glass, on someone's hat by request, where ever. Of course it's not legal, but then neither is anal sex in Washington but I'm sure there's lots of that going on everywhere anyway, hehehe. A female friend of mine once told me she went to a huge/popular place in Toronto and the guys were rubbing their cocks on the girls, letting them touch them all over, and even a case when a guy on stage stuck his member in the drink of some chick, as if to stir it, and she (drunk out of her mind) promptly drank it. Umm.. yummy. "Excuse me mr. stripper, can I please have another schlong island ice tea?" (believe it or not, I just made that up, hehe, must the the mary jane giving me inspiration or something).


by no means am i saying the woman belongs in the kitchen, but i hate when people deny that men and women simply have different chemical makeups and instincts.

I know eh! We are very very different. It's also not cool to denote differences in different races either, even though they are obvious. Why is it that all girls of any race can dance, but in general, aside from blacks and latin men it seems, men have great difficulty with this simple task, particularly white guys (at least those who haven't taken lots of crystal meth, speed, or exstacy). It's definitely not lack of coordination either, I play kit and as a result have shit-loads of coordination but I couldn't dance to save my life and I never could. Good thing I hate dancing, hehe.

everyone rags on it, but loveline is a great radio show. listen to a week of loveline and you will learn soooo much about human nature. people just make the same mistakes over and over and over because we never address the differences between men and women. how many relationships have failed because the man can't understand the woman's behavior and vice versa?!

I would say, in general, men think women are kinda flakey and too emotional and women think men are cold and unfeeling assholes. Both are right in the context of the other of course.

Satori, the cold and unfeeling asshole from hell
 
Ahhhhhahahaha! Aw, man, this is great, more quotes for the ramblings. "Schlong Island Iced Tea". Whooo...

For men (not boys, boys are more female in their thoughts than men), love is expressed somewhat as an urge to dominate and protect.

I often wonder at what stage of development I, myself fit in there. I'm not completely into "Me MAN! Me hunt, be it with spear or penis!" age/mode yet, but I'm not still a child, either. I have noticed that instead of being (probably wisely) attracted to personality aspects that would be absolute requirements for people to coexist with me for a lengthy period of time, (like intellect, a degree of self-awareness, and a sense of humour), the simple cuteness factor wins EVERY time. The physically "cute" female instantly induces some apparently otherwise dormant male protective gene that gives me an immediate emotional need to coddle and protect. Under the correct circumstances, my spine can be reduced to a substance resembling a cross between silly putty, Jello pudding, and fully-cooked Supporo Ichiban (this is when the guy falls off the fence, hehe).

The question I would pose (since I can unfortunately see it coming) is what influence of society, or genetics, allows the male to go from a need to "dominate" to being "whipped" by his female, as so many of my friends get taunted by me for (even though I'd probably be worse, heh). Is this simply a result of a fully mentally developed woman in a relationship with a mentally younger male ("boy"), where the intricasies of the hunter/gatherer relationship is rendered meaningless my the one-sided strength of a member of the overall relationship, or a counter-evolutionary imposition of society?
 
Hey Spawn,

I'm like that too, the cute thing really rocks my world and makes me a little insane, particularly cute, petite, with a nice ass. That's just too much to take.

The way I see it, when males and females are young they are pretty much the same, but when they grow up, the males change pretty drastically but the women retain more child-like physical characteristics like a cute face, less physical size, less body hair, high cheek bones, and a high voice. These are all sexual ques to guys. For this reason, I see it as no "genetic mistake" how men can be pedophiles (sad and sick as this is) since women and children tend to look somewhat alike. Just a side-note I wanted to share.

I don't know where you fit in on the "me man" scale either, but I can tell you about my own experience. For me, the transition from "love" to "dominate/protect" occured when I was about 23, but I'm one of those guys who has always looked much younger than he is, so I don't know if I was just a slow developer or what. Only recently have I become manly enough to grow think facial hair. Thing is, females retain that love emotion in full while for men it tends to wain shortly after puberty, much like the desire for constant sex (just an interpretation).

The question I would pose (since I can unfortunately see it coming) is what influence of society, or genetics, allows the male to go from a need to "dominate" to being "whipped" by his female, as so many of my friends get taunted by me for (even though I'd probably be worse, heh).

Good point. This is not something I considered cuz I am quite unwhippable, being the independent and head-strong freak that I am. I don't know why people went in this direction. In other primates, the males always dominate everything all the time. I suppose in that 5 or so million years since we shared a common ancestor with chimps we developed our own little traits that perhaps the other primates don't have at all.

Is this simply a result of a fully mentally developed woman in a relationship with a mentally younger male ("boy"), where the intricasies of the hunter/gatherer relationship is rendered meaningless my the one-sided strength of a member of the overall relationship, or a counter-evolutionary imposition of society?

It's got to be, but I'm not sure if it's actually counter-evolutionary. I watched a show on PBS recently about evolution, it was really cool. Something it concluded is that people have changed very little genetically in the last 50,000 years, instead, all our evolution has been in social, language, and techonology areas. The ablity to pass on info to our offspring and for them to expand/improve upon it and then pass it to their offsping is what really advanced us so incredibly far so fast.

What I was thinking was this: Male and females have a lot in common, so just as men have useless nipples, maybe females have the dominance urge as well (they have to dominate their children after all so it makes sense they'd have this desire). Since we men no longer rule by brute force like was the case not all that long ago (and it still goes on in some parts of the world, *shudder*), I think females are now better able to express their own urge to dominate. I don't see this as an environmental adaptation to ensure survial or anything, just something which has occured. Another way I look at is this: maybe it is an evolutionary mechanism. We went from a few dominate males fucking everyone to people paring off in (relatively) manogamous relationships (which helps to keep the peace and unsure more genetic diversity). Perhaps it became necessary for primative females to dominate their males a bit to get them to suppress their urge to try to slap around the smaller males and do all the females himself, something which become a no-no sometime during the accent of humans.

I have noticed that women have the urge to whip their men however. Maybe Lina can provide some insight into this desire. I get the feeling that women think they can "fix" men, change them into what they want them to be, and this is of course for the man's own good. I'll certainly never be like that, I'm sure of it, I'm just too much of a dom.

A word of advice I can give to all guys confidently is this: if you start dating a girl and she starts dictating what you do in your free time, what you wear, how you do your hair, what you eat, etc, then do the right thing and end it. From my experience, such females become chronic naggers and won't be happy with you unless you pretty much become a slave to them. This is not good. There are guys who do this to their girls too, but they are typically labeled "assholes", whereas a woman who does this is considered "strong, independent, demanding" (definitely not how I would describe them, that's for sure, hehe).

Anyway, interesting stuff. Do you think you'll ever be whipped like your friends Hoser? If so, how does that make you feel?

Lina, do you have this urge to "fix" (dominate) men? If so, why?

Something else, for the sake of discussion: From my experience, many many girls are emotionally straight but sexually bi. Why do you think that is?

Satori
 
Originally posted by Satori
What I was thinking was this: Male and females have a lot in common, so just as men have useless nipples, maybe females have the dominance urge as well (they have to dominate their children after all so it makes sense they'd have this desire). Since we men no longer rule by brute force like was the case not all that long ago (and it still goes on in some parts of the world, *shudder*), I think females are now better able to express their own urge to dominate. I don't see this as an environmental adaptation to ensure survial or anything, just something which has occured. Another way I look at is this: maybe it is an evolutionary mechanism. We went from a few dominate males fucking everyone to people paring off in (relatively) manogamous relationships (which helps to keep the peace and unsure more genetic diversity). Perhaps it became necessary for primative females to dominate their males a bit to get them to suppress their urge to try to slap around the smaller males and do all the females himself, something which become a no-no sometime during the accent of humans.

Funny...seems like you do a bit of telling on yourself there. You said that males and females have extraordinary differences and proceeded to describe them, but here you cancel your previous statement out, by saying that all these differences are the result of certain similarities being subdued. E.g.: females weren't allowed to be dominant, so they became submissive. I think there are a few differences between males and females, such as the sex drive. I also think that these differences are far less pronounced by nature than society has made it seem. I have no desire at all to be either submissive or dominant. I want an equal. That is what makes a female desirable to me. I require a certain degree of "cuteness", and so does almost ever person. Females included. They all talk about how "hot" certain guys are, maybe as much as males do. But looks mean so little to me that my standards in that department are negligible. (sp?) By nature, males are stronger physically than females. That causes them to assume that they are the masters. Each has traits that are expected of the stereotype of the oppoisite sex; this leads me to believe that expression of these traits is merely a matter of whether they are allowed to express them or not. Some more strong-willed females will refuse to be dominated, and will not succumb to the expectancy of them to be submissive. Some more strong-willed males will shed the label "Man" and not care whether they appear to be the best by slaying the most rival apes (literally or metaphorically), and will follow their true desire, whatever it may be, and not the idea that they should be the "protector and master".
 
I know this will seed even more people who wish to discredit me, but I am an "anti-evolution idiot". I will also take the initiative, and NOT call the evolutionists idiots. They are merely a little presumptuous if they are to call evolution a fact. There is no proof of evolution. Period. Any so-called proof is just as baseless as whatever proof creationalism can supply. Believing in either one is a matter of faith, since both require alot of it to swallow their stories. I don't see how evolution is any more practical than creationalism. The numbers for the chances are so insanely miniscual that a God just may have to be present to bring them about, correct? :err: Heh, a fusion of the two is an interesting idea, I think. Seriously, though, don't call someone an idiot based upon speculation. There are no strong facts either way. Hell there are almost no facts either way.


P.S. (carbon dating is also glorified bullshit)
 
Originally posted by TyrantOfFlames
Seriously, though, don't call someone an idiot based upon speculation. There are no strong facts either way.
well, we don't agree. and i still believe people who deny the obvious, glaring proof of evolution are idiots (idiot meaning someone who denies obvious, glaring proof). and besides, we've already had this discussion on the religion thread, so i'd rather not rehash it. sorry. :p
 
Originally posted by Satori
I have noticed that women have the urge to whip their men however. Maybe Lina can provide some insight into this desire.

Lina, do you have this urge to "fix" (dominate) men? If so, why?
well, obviously this is a tad awkward since my bf reads this board. :rolleyes: but i'll give you my perspective.

unfortunately, i have no idea why some women feel a need to control their man. i've always just chalked it up to poor interpersonal skills. just one of the many ways that people act that aren't conducive to maintaining a stable relationship. i think you guys have been formulating great theories into the reasons we act the way we do, so you could probably make more sense out of it than me.

Dune and i are friends with a couple where the girlfriend is just carrying on the role of his overprotective and intrusive mother. it's truly sickening to watch. since this guy has never had any freedom, he doesn't seem to realize what he's missing, so i guess he doesn't mind that his girlfriend picks out his clothes, his furniture, even his quilt. he calls to wake her up every morning (even when he could sleep in), and she gets mad if she doesn't talk to him at least 2 more times that day. in the past, this drove him to the edge of breaking up with her, but since then he seems resigned to it. and she recently declared she'll be "pissed if she doesn't have a ring on her hand in six months." this just absolutely grosses me out.

sure, we all have to make sacrifices in a relationship in terms of budgeting our time, having someone depending on you, etc. and with all the talk of being "whipped," i think sometimes guys bristle about these normal sacrifices for fear of becoming whipped.

but i personally don't think i treat Dune that way. i agree with TyrantOfFlames that i want an equal. in fact, i would never boss Dune around for fear of him rising up and kicking my naggin' ass to the curb. :D

i think the whole whipping thing is one of many symptoms of having bad interpersonal skills and not being able to step out of yourself and see how your actions are viewed and what they will lead to.
 
Originally posted by Soul4Raziel
Wow this thread got offf topic quite nicely

I know, isn't it beautiful? Those are the conversations that are remembered, the ones that started out with something simple, yet turn into something massively complex and lasting.