The All Elusive 100% Natural Drums - Feedback Appreciated

guitarguru777

guitarguru777

Member
Nov 13, 2003
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www.jasonconstantine.com
For the last year I have had my studio I have been sample replacing or programming all the drums in my mixes. So this morning I had some time on my hands and decided to really start working on trying to manipulate natural drum sounds and get what I record to sound somewhat decent.

I recorded these drums 2 weeks ago in a warehouse here in Las Vegas. The kit was a Yamaha Recording Custom. Snare is a custom Birch / Bubinga alternating 30 ply snare. 14" in Diameter and 8" deep

Mics were as follows:
Kick: Digital Reference DR-K100 (piece of crap) & Yamaha Sub Kick
Snare: 57 on top, e609 on Bottom
Toms: CAD TSM 411
Overheads: Sterling Audio ST31


This is my first foray into 100% natural drums and I am wondering what you think or where I could make improvements. I am really beginning to think that the Kick mic in particular is SUPER fucking important. So I think its time to save up for a decent kick mic.

Here are my first impressions:
Snare isnt too bad, I thin it could use more body and a longer decay but I had to gate it super hard cause of all the bleed I was getting.

Toms sound surprisingly good to my ears. I really like them a bunch

Kick is very very plastic sounding. I had to pull a bunch of frequencies cause I was getting this really odd Flamming effect, I think the kick head was WAYYY too lose, or the front head was too loose.

Oh's out of phase i think. I am so harrible at overheads. The sterling mics are too brittle on the top and have no "body".

Let me know your thoughts and where you think I can improve other then new mics. I think for what I used its pretty good. No?

http://www.jasoncohenitservices.com/Natural_Drums.mp3
 
I actually like that snare. The kick however... beyond repair IMO. Not a fan of those OHs either.

Either get a new kick mic and good cymbals or accept that you won't be doing 100% real drums. You can make that snare work though, I'm pretty certain :)
 
Have you gated / edited the toms?
The level of the OHs to the snare track makes me think that I'm hearing mostly the snare in the OHs.
 
OH;s are just really low in the mix cause I hated the way they came out. I gated and edited the toms, Gated the kick and snare as well. There is also a mic on the Hats and Ride I forgot to add those. So its a part of Stereo OH's and a CAD CM217 on Hats and Ride

EDIT shit 1 more mic ...lol Audix I5 on the Cowbell, it was the only mic I had left :p
 
In my drum mixes, I rarely use hats or ride mics. I'll automate them for when I need 'em.

My kick and snare are at fader 0, with toms close to -3/0 but my OHs are -6. That way I'm really getting the close mic'd (and subsequent compression / EQ) on the tracks rather than bleed from OHs.

I've not listened on headphones, just my MBPs speakers - but I reckon you could improve on what you've done. All isn't lost! :)
 
What? No one yet? Okay...guess I'll have to be the one to say it: It needs more cowbell!! ;)

Like the consensus...that kick is just terrible. How did you place the DR-K100? You really need to invest in a better mic for the kick. I know they're not popular around here, but I LOVE RE-20's for kick. Besides the other usual suspects, an MD421 can do pretty nicely in a pinch as well...since you SHOULD have a few around for micing drums. ;)

The toms and snare are DEFINITELY useable.
 
You can always replace the Kick but the OH are absolutely dreadful. I'd invest in a good pair of condensers first.
 
There is something definitely wrong with the kick heads tuning in the first place. I agree with all that has been done, mainly than this snare and these tomes are really usable.
 
I think my main issue with the overheads are is that when I record drums I don't have a separate control room to listen back in. I just have a pair of cans in the room with the drums. So I cant really judge if the phase is fucked or not.

Here is a 2nd attempt. Less internal kick mic and more sub kick. No Hat and Ride Mics, more comp on the OH's and their level brought down in the mix. Added a bit more snap to the snare as well with a bit of EQ and bringing the bottom mic up a bit.

http://www.jasoncohenitservices.com/Natural_Drums_2.mp3
 
crillemannen said:
I don't know if it is the OH microphones that are bad or the cymbals themselfs?
Click to expand...

Cymbals were Sabian AAX

18" Stage Crash, 16" Stage Crash, 14" Dark Crash. I tried to get him to use thinner cymbals but hes the big rock guy. You should have seen the fight that there was only 1 kick on the kit and it wasn't a 24" ....lol

Honestly its probably a combination of both.
 
guitarguru777 said:
I think my main issue with the overheads are is that when I record drums I don't have a separate control room to listen back in. I just have a pair of cans in the room with the drums. So I cant really judge if the phase is fucked or not.
Click to expand...

This is a situation that will take time and experimentation to fix. You will need to set stuff up, record 30 seconds of playing, then listen in your DAW. If something is wrong, move shit, then do it again. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Etc.

Have fun. :)
 
I think the cymbals are pumping now (which is pretty annoying), but the kick is a bit better. But positioning of the mic is really important with kick (well, as it is with everything really). The second clip is a lot better, it might be ok without the occasional glitch/click/whatever and the cymbals fixed (no pumping and louder).

Edit: Here's a internal band demo (minus the vocals, they weren't ready anyway) The song isn't complete and the recording was a 10 minute job, so don't expect too much.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10138888/Makrofagi - Kuu Kutsuu karaoke 2.mp3

100% real drums, for some reason they turned out pretty good, although there was just 2 mics there if I remember right (bass drum and one overhead) :) Of course, everything is mono on the drums because of that.
 
guitarguru777 said:
Cymbals were Sabian AAX

18" Stage Crash, 16" Stage Crash, 14" Dark Crash. I tried to get him to use thinner cymbals but hes the big rock guy. You should have seen the fight that there was only 1 kick on the kit and it wasn't a 24" ....lol

Honestly its probably a combination of both.
Click to expand...

Ah ok, then it is probably mainly the microphones then, because those cymbals are pretty decent.

Im just about to by myself new OH mics, but the oktavas i have is really nice actually :) cheap to
 
ah sorry man hehe, Oktava mk012. Im gonna try both the Peluso R14 and Cemc6 next week. I would have liked to try Shure ksm141 + ksm32 also but the just recently changed distributors in Sweden so i don't think i will be able to borrow those :( In my mind i hope i will like the R14 the most, but they are also the most expensive out of those , around 1500$ / pair
 
Kita said:
This is a situation that will take time and experimentation to fix. You will need to set stuff up, record 30 seconds of playing, then listen in your DAW. If something is wrong, move shit, then do it again. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Etc.

Have fun. :)
Click to expand...

+ 1

The microphones always have a sweetspot over the cymbals. Usually it is say about 40cm from the clock of the cymbal (or center) If miced wrong cymbals can get really harsh fast
 
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