The All Elusive 100% Natural Drums - Feedback Appreciated

[drew_drummer]

Honest feedback:

Is the kit damaged in anyway? It sounds like it to me. Sounds like the lugs are loose or something, or the skins were in really poor condition. Kick has a really flappy sound to it, and the snare sounds really hollow and lifeless to me.

Overheads sound abrasive and harsh. I don't think it's a phase issue, I think it's a mic placement issue. Too close to the cymbals perhaps. Even in your 2nd attempt, they still sound a bit harsh to me - how are you EQing them?

 

[amarshism]

The best part about this thread is your humility and honesty. Most morons posting up threads like these offer no details, examples or reasoning behind their ramblings. I appreciate your open way of approaching what you clearly have identified as a weakness in your abilities. /gurulovepost

 

[guitarguru777]

Honest feedback:

Is the kit damaged in anyway? It sounds like it to me. Sounds like the lugs are loose or something, or the skins were in really poor condition. Kick has a really flappy sound to it, and the snare sounds really hollow and lifeless to me.

Overheads sound abrasive and harsh. I don't think it's a phase issue, I think it's a mic placement issue. Too close to the cymbals perhaps. Even in your 2nd attempt, they still sound a bit harsh to me - how are you EQing them?

No the kit was literally brand new. My only quam is he used pinstripes instead of batters like I usually use. He also tunes the toms really low but prefers a 12" 14" rack and 16" 18" floor standard setup but I would think you would normally tune them a bit higher. We discussed it and he was immovable on the tuning of the drums. I asked him if he would prefer 14" 16" racks and dual 18"s on the floor for a deeper tom sound but he refused.

I know overheads are definitely my weakness along with mid level mics for kick and overheads. This is why I have been sample replacing so much. I really want to get into using REAL (for lack of a better term) tones. I think my Toms are decent and I normally like my snare tones. This snare is a real interesting one though.

Its a 30 ply Birch / Bubinga alternating shell. Its a 12 lug tom and he uses the black evans heads which I hate. The fucker is 8" deep and its fucking like 40lbs, and its LOUD as fuck. I got so much bleed in the other mic's including the kick it was nuts! I was only able to do so much with what I had to work with.

As for the overheads I am still working on that, I probably had them too close to the cymbals. My project before this I didn't get enough stereo separation, and I got a shitload of the kit in the OH's. I think I may have overcompensated on this one. I was trying a new technique kinda like spot micing that I had seen and I think I just got the mics too close and too far apart from one another. Normally I pan my OH's hard left and right but with this its more like 65% on each side so it wasn't so extreme.

What do you suggest? Better over heads and just more practice?

EDIT Eq's on the OH's High pass at 500hz and a high shelf at 16k with a 3db boost just to give them some shine. With that I am also using SSL Channel Strip with a slightly modified version of one of the CLA Presets.

 

[guitarguru777]

The best part about this thread is your humility and honesty. Most morons posting up threads like these offer no details, examples or reasoning behind their ramblings. I appreciate your open way of approaching what you clearly have identified as a weakness in your abilities. /gurulovepost

Thanks. I look at it this way. The best way to learn is to give all the info you have and get feedback. At least I am not trying to pass off AD as the real thing

 

[CAlexanderParra]

Monkey business

 

[guitarguru777]

HAHAHAH ... Yup Yup!

Cutting a demo for the cover band and I am trying to get it as natural sounding as possible. I don't want it TOOOOO polished.

We are doing 5 songs:
Money Business
Highway To Hell
Bark At The Moon
You Could Be Mine
Breaking The Chains

 

[CAlexanderParra]

Pretty awesome!
Agreed about the shitty kick and the not so great overheads. I'd just replace the kick and for overheads go for a pair of Rode NT5's, those ST31's really don't sound too special. I also wouldn't worry about the phase with overheads too much. After that bring on moar cowbell!

 

[drew_drummer]

No the kit was literally brand new. My only quam is he used pinstripes instead of batters like I usually use. He also tunes the toms really low but prefers a 12" 14" rack and 16" 18" floor standard setup but I would think you would normally tune them a bit higher. We discussed it and he was immovable on the tuning of the drums. I asked him if he would prefer 14" 16" racks and dual 18"s on the floor for a deeper tom sound but he refused.

I know overheads are definitely my weakness along with mid level mics for kick and overheads. This is why I have been sample replacing so much. I really want to get into using REAL (for lack of a better term) tones. I think my Toms are decent and I normally like my snare tones. This snare is a real interesting one though.

Its a 30 ply Birch / Bubinga alternating shell. Its a 12 lug tom and he uses the black evans heads which I hate. The fucker is 8" deep and its fucking like 40lbs, and its LOUD as fuck. I got so much bleed in the other mic's including the kick it was nuts! I was only able to do so much with what I had to work with.

As for the overheads I am still working on that, I probably had them too close to the cymbals. My project before this I didn't get enough stereo separation, and I got a shitload of the kit in the OH's. I think I may have overcompensated on this one. I was trying a new technique kinda like spot micing that I had seen and I think I just got the mics too close and too far apart from one another. Normally I pan my OH's hard left and right but with this its more like 65% on each side so it wasn't so extreme.

What do you suggest? Better over heads and just more practice?

EDIT Eq's on the OH's High pass at 500hz and a high shelf at 16k with a 3db boost just to give them some shine. With that I am also using SSL Channel Strip with a slightly modified version of one of the CLA Presets.

Yeah man, I'd suggest more practice and trying out a variety of overhead techniques. I'm fond of a spaced pair when it comes to rock drums, but I also like X/Y.

I also like to put the overheads quite high above the kit - how high did you have them? I find that using the room to mush up the overheads a little can help with the abrasiveness. I also find that if I'm spot micing a cymbal, I have to have a pretty severe high-pass on it - literally up to about 800hz.

Has the drummer himself heard this, and what were his comments? He might move on the tuning side of things if you show him what it sounds like recorded - explain to him that things under a microphone sound infinitely more different than how they sound in the room, and phatness in the room wont necessarily translate to a recording.

 

[guitarguru777]

We wnet through all of that today as a matter of fact, and hes agreed to shut the fuck up and listen next time ...lol

As for distance the cymbals were less then a foot from the mic.

 

[pikachu69]

I would watch your kick mic placment. Dead center in both directions is normally a spot I avoid like the plauge as it is highly likely to have massive phase and node issues. Slightly off centre but facing in at the beater head is a better way to go.
Also, 6db boost on a high shelf on the OH is also very likely to be causing some of the harshness descibed in the comments. A shelf EQ boosts everything above the nominated frequency, so everything about 8khz has been boosted by 6db, (including 16khz) then you bumped up 16khz by a further 3db. (9db in total!) Try lowering the shelf to round 1.5 - 3db max for some shine then some air round 16khz with a bell curve round 1 db or so. Try a small cut with a medium Q round the 3.5 - 4khz instead of the boost round 2.5khz. Lastly try a lowpass filter on the OH group set in between 17 - 18khz. this should take some harshness of the OH. Maybe even lower the lowpass filter to round 250hz.
Hope some of this helps.