The compression question thread

I think the make-up gain adjusts the entire signal, not just that affected by the compressor. I had a drum signal pushing 0 on the transient, compressed it very hard to test it, about 12dB, and had an attack time around 30ms. If I raised the make-up gain at all, that unaffected 30ms transient began to clip, but the rest of the signal was very quiet. If it just affected the compressed part of the signal, I would have been able to raised the parts after the 30ms transient and not clip. Its just like the output on an EQ.


Does anyone here had any luck compressing samples if they are all the same velocity, just to get more punch by using a large attack time? I know a question like this was asked earlier, but i dont think it was really answered as to a good way of doing it.
 
When i use parallel compression i use the same attack times (usually the longest attack possible), but have the ratio maxed out for the parallel track. i definitely like the results i get like this and don't get any weird sounds

You use the longest attack time? That seems totally contrary to what I would expect, cuz I figured for parallel comp. you wanna smash the living hell out of it to even out the level, and thus with anything but the shortest attack time, you wouldn't be able to do this. It may sound good, but would that still be parallel compression in the traditional sense?

I think the make-up gain adjusts the entire signal, not just that affected by the compressor. I had a drum signal pushing 0 on the transient, compressed it very hard to test it, about 12dB, and had an attack time around 30ms. If I raised the make-up gain at all, that unaffected 30ms transient began to clip, but the rest of the signal was very quiet. If it just affected the compressed part of the signal, I would have been able to raised the parts after the 30ms transient and not clip. Its just like the output on an EQ.

See, that's what I thought too, but look at the image matt youwin posted; maybe it depends on the comp.
 
If you use make up gain on like a waves compressor, you can actually see the whole diagonal line go up. So that would mean make up gain affects everything and not just the compressed part right? So it would make the softer passages harder. But if the signal is still in the release zone..which part of the compression does it use? I mean you already affected the softer passages in the make up gain, so release seems kinda pointless to me somehow?
 
Lol, el-biczel, you finally made me check out other compression plugins XD wish i wasn't a noob on these things huh!
 
Ya, I've been using waves compressors, and I just checked the manual and it said the C1 is set up with a standard output that raises/ lowers everything. Which compressors only raise the compressed signal? That sounds like a good thing to have.
 
If you don't use make up gain, auto gain makes the volume go to somewhere that the overall volume doesn't seem to be affected by the compressor. At least that's what i have experienced XD So it's automatic make up gain i guess :)
 
Makeup gain does affect the whole signal, but it's 'apparent' affect on a given component of the signal is dependant on the effects of compression. I'll try giving a simple example using numbers (no diagrams sorry)

Let's take 5 points on a waveform

-5db
-10db
-15db
-20db
-25db

Say you set your compressor to a threshold of -15db with a ratio for 5:1 with 8db of makeup gain. I'll disregard attack/release for the purpose of this example.

-5db >>> -5db (peak remains 'unaffected' -8db compression, +8db makeup gain)
-10db >>> -6db (4db boost... -4db compression, + 8db makeup gain)
-15db >>> -7db (8db boost... no compression, +8db makeup gain)
-20db >>> -12db (8db boost... no compression, +8db makeup gain)
-25db >>> -17db (8db boost... no compression, +8db makeup gain)

So the peak remains 'unaffected' as it passes through, but the rest of the waveform is given a boost.


o_O my head hurts :p
 
And as el-biczel mentioned, if you don't have the attack time set correctly, then the compressor is going to miss the first peak (or more) and just add 8db of gain to it, not what you want to happen at all!!!
 
That's pretty obvious. The problem starts, when you have too long attack time.
For instance, the first -5db point could not be compressed due to too long attack time, and it would just get +8 make-up gain. So it would end at +3db and could clip and all the rest would be as you described, in case the attack time would have been set up exactly to let only the first note through.
If I'm wrong, somebody correct me please.

PS huh, you were quicker. :)
 
Sorry for the late answer, I was mixing some Japanese band. I apologise for the language barrier stuff on my reply, because I am not sure of the word, but by "transient" I mean the first wave.

1) When trying to "smash" something (usually vocals/bass, as well as any parallel compression), wouldn't one always want to use the fastest attack possible? The way I see it is you're trying to even out the volume, so even letting a little transient through before clamping down seems like it would defeat the purpose.

If you just want it to sound smashed, then "Yes," but if you want it to sound good, then the answer would be "No". For example if you want to make the kick sound good and smashed, you will usually lose the punchiness of initial transient the kick if you put the attack to 0-1 ms, which is usually the lowest possible value. As a "soundcheck", ask the drummer to play constant 1/4 hits, put the release to 150ms, then start to twist the attack so that it sounds good. I think 5-30 is the one that usually sounds the best one, but once again this is really case dependant, use that one that sounds the best.

2) By the same token, when trying to "smash" something, why wouldn't one always want the fastest release? To me, that seems like it'd be the most transparent, cuz I'd imagine it'd be like manually automating the fader to adjust the volume of a part to even it out, which is what I assume using a compressor in this case is for.

No, because fast attack and release times on some compressors can cause distortion, especially on hardware units. Also really fast releases can make it sound really unnatural on high end listening enviroment, and for example the "default" setting of ~150 on most compressors is usually too slow on really fast double pedal action, because it can cause unwanted compressing of the initial transition of the next kick hit. Also if the release is faster than the attack, it can cause unwanted pumping.

3) When working with samples, especially those of a consistent velocity (specifically kick hits), what's the purpose of compressing them if you don't need to equalize the level? I mean, compression by definition is a dynamics control, so if the track you're applying it to has no dynamics, then what's the point? The only reason I can imagine is if you've got a compressor that has a certain kind of coloration that you like, so really, you're not even using it for its compression, just it's affect on the sound.

I almost left this one unanswered, but then I remembered when a DJ friend of mine said that when you compress it enough, it will distort. I also noticed this when we were tracking vocals at Finnvox, the distortion saturation was really nice with a high end compressor, it made the vocals sound a bit more raw. Also some compressors have a trait that they tend to make the body sound little fatter and more punchy if compressed correctly.

Also I found out on a tour that my cheap Behringer T1952 compressor sounds really fucking awesome on percussion type of instruments (read: drums), because of the additional colorization and slight distortion, which usually sounds good on drums. It beat the hell out of 8 times more expensive Klark teknik with same settings. But dont use it on anything else, it sounds horrific on vocals for example.
 
And as el-biczel mentioned, if you don't have the attack time set correctly, then the compressor is going to miss the first peak (or more) and just add 8db of gain to it, not what you want to happen at all!!!

Well now I'm confused dude, what do you mean by setting the attack time "correctly?" Cuz I thought you were saying to set it so it comes in after the Attack (so as not to compress it) and has its effect on the Decay/Sustain (unless it's a drum :))/Release...

Wait, nevermind, I re-read your earlier post, and saw that you do want to compress the transient, so that the make-up gain is the same as the gain you're attenuating. But if that's the case, wouldn't having the attack time set "correctly" just mean making it as short as possible? And that's directly contradictory to this:

soooo... if you want to add punch to say a kick drum, you want to slow the attack of the comp just enough to let the original transient through, and the compression will bring up the decay of the kick to a more constant level.

AGZ was saying what I thought you were saying, that you let the transient through, but you're saying to clamp down on everything? And you're also saying that the makeup gain has the exact same effect as turning up the track fader when mixing ITB?
 
If you just want it to sound smashed, then "Yes," but if you want it to sound good, then the answer would be "No". For example if you want to make the kick sound good and smashed, you will usually lose the punchiness of initial transient the kick if you put the attack to 0-1 ms, which is usually the lowest possible value. As a "soundcheck", ask the drummer to play constant 1/4 hits, put the release to 150ms, then start to twist the attack so that it sounds good. I think 5-30 is the one that usually sounds the best one, but once again this is really case dependant, use that one that sounds the best.

Well I was more referring to vocals/bass actually, instruments without much in the way of transients (unless we're talking slap bass, but fat chance I'll be recording that any time soon :lol: ), so that's where I thought having the fastest attack would be advantageous; what sayest thou?
 
Well now I'm confused dude, what do you mean by setting the attack time "correctly?" Cuz I thought you were saying to set it so it comes in after the Attack (so as not to compress it) and has its effect on the Decay/Sustain (unless it's a drum :))/Release...

Wait, nevermind, I re-read your earlier post, and saw that you do want to compress the transient, so that the make-up gain is the same as the gain you're attenuating. But if that's the case, wouldn't having the attack time set "correctly" just mean making it as short as possible? And that's directly contradictory to this:



AGZ was saying what I thought you were saying, that you let the transient through, but you're saying to clamp down on everything?

I suppose it comes down to your interpretation of 'punch' haha. I see it as more body/roundness/oomph rather than a slappy/clicky sound.

Though to be honest I don't see how "the compression will bring up the decay of the kick to a more constant level" just because the attack is delayed...as detailed above the makeup gain is still going to be acting on the initial transient.