The Downloading Poll (at the behest of Management)

Downloading...


  • Total voters
    151
Outside of a couple of iTunes purchases, I don't download anything other than free tracks posted on band or label websites. (no P2P or torrents) I spend almost all of my spending money on CDs. The "moral" choice of downloading outside the law is up to each person. However I'm going to go against the grain with regards to the "I d/l because I don't have money." This argument DOES work and it is one of the few legitimate arguments that can be made for downloading. Why do I think this? It's contingent on whether or not the person who downloaded it is turning around and spreading it around to many other people. If you can't afford to buy a CD but you download it and listen to it yourself (basically do what you would do with a storebought disc) then I don't believe that's stealing from the band or robbing anybody of money. Because they would never have made that sale in the first place. If you're loaded financially and you choose downloading over spending money that you DO have, then I do believe you're a jerk for doing so. But I'm not against a young kid or anybody with tight finances who would not be able to buy the album enjoying music using the downloading resources that are available to them. It doesn't hurt the band or the label in this case because they aren't losing a sale they otherwise would have made. Again, this is contingent of course on what that person then does with their download. Then later on, when you get a job or are doing better money-wise, you can buy the disc/a tshirt/a ticket because by then you'd be a bigger fan anyway if you liked the music. I know some people are going to slam me for this post, but while I don't support downloading with abandon, I don't believe it's an always-wrong-always-stealing picture.

The argument that will be made will be "I'm financially strapped and I can't afford a car so I hotwired one". Or something to that effect.

I've downloaded about 15 albums this year. When I had some extra money I pick them up. Last paycheck I treated myself to the new King Diamond, Iced Earth EP, Symphony X and 3 Inches of Blood.

4 down, 11 to go in my mind. Anyone that walks into my front door is bombarded with walls of dvds and cds. No one can say that I don't puchase music. Am I wrong for downloading? In the court's eyes yes. But in the end the label and band and everyone in between gets my hard earned ca$h.
 
I'll say it again, i'd rather go to ProgPowerUSA than owning 10-12 albums that I could get anywhere on the internet.
I've used the same calculus. For what I spend on airfare, hotel, tix, marginal food costs, opportunity costs of missed time with work & family, etc ... I figure I can get close 100 - 200 CDs, easily. Fact is that I enjoy the CDs more than the concerts. Live metal performance is always substandard, even when performed by the best of the best. So I don't go. Better to assume that my favorite bands are infallible perfectionists on stage like their albums. Sure, I miss out on hanging out with the people, but I'm seeing that I'm an irascible, misanthropic fuckhead and the Internet is still here working the same - it doesn't bother me much anymore.
 
The end result is not the same as the artist was supported on the original sale.
With a download, there is no original sale.

That's why I said they are not the same, but the end result from my perspective is the same. The used cd will be purchased and sold no matter what I do, that is out of my control. I'm just saying that used buying and downloading share a commonality in that they both leave the person with a copy of the album without supporting the artist.
 
Now the core of my argument for sampling before buying, is the fact that the "label" produces a cd that costs literally pennies to make and turns around and tries to sell it to me for $15 maybe as much as $20.
So your justification is that you're ignorant of economics? Cool. Whatever works for you.

Regardless of your underestimation of the production costs of CDs, the selling price has nothing to do with cost.

The selling price is driven by your subjective valuation of the marginal utility of the CD as compared to not purchasing anything or buying something else.

You pay what you think the disc is worth to you. Everybody else does the same thing. If the total accumulated valuations of all willing exchangers does not exceed the production costs (do more research on this part next time) then the band and/or label incurs a net loss. The result of that outcome depends on the depth of the pockets of the band and/or label. It could be termination of business. It could be continued business at lower costs (and lower quality).

That's the reason to purchase music you like.

Your argument would be more compelling if you'd used your own opportunity costs to justify your sampling. That's perfectly reasonable.
 
Joe-×;6327792 said:
I've used the same calculus. For what I spend on airfare, hotel, tix, marginal food costs, opportunity costs of missed time with work & family, etc ... I figure I can get close 100 - 200 CDs, easily. Fact is that I enjoy the CDs more than the concerts. Live metal performance is always substandard, even when performed by the best of the best. So I don't go. Better to assume that my favorite bands are infallible perfectionists on stage like their albums. Sure, I miss out on hanging out with the people, but I'm seeing that I'm an irascible, misanthropic fuckhead and the Internet is still here working the same - it doesn't bother me much anymore.

I enjoy concerts, seeing bands live and such. Not sure why to be copletely honest but I do. But why not enjoy both worlds?
 
I cut and pasted this from the Circus Maximus thread since Glenn gave a global last warning in that thread and I've probably used up all my extra bonus personal goodwill last warnings, ha ha...

what i want to know is artists view on ...
Who gives a rat's ass what they think? They make something you like, you buy it. (Or give the band members blowjobs - always thinking of you, Claus :p , smooch). If they don't make something you like, then you don't buy it. If they've got something to say they should write a song about it. The last thing the world needs is some self-absorbed egotistical jackass (besides me) blabbering on about their opinions on downloading. Just shut the fuck up and make music already. :rock:
 
I enjoy concerts, seeing bands live and such. Not sure why to be copletely honest but I do. But why not enjoy both worlds?
I do - when they come to my town or nearby. I like the concert experience, but I mind the nickels and dimes, too. I'm a tightwad kind of fuckhead.
 
I have downloaded albums, cardboard promos, cd-rs with demo tracks from bands, used cds, Japanese imports, and closet of band shirts. I think I support the scene the best way I can. I don't buy every cd I download (which get deleted after a review anyways to make more room) nor do I purchase every promo I get. But I do buy alot more music than most who are getting it for free. I buy because I like to have the album in my hands and then in my collection. Even if I keep a downloaded album on the Ipod I never feel like I own it until I go out and buy it.

The biggest problem with downloading is that it makes everyone a goddamn critic. "Yea I thought the new cd was shit, I dunno really cos I only listened to the first thirty seconds of the first song then changed it. " No one takes the time to really sit down and enjoy music anymore its all a big fucking rush to sample the three dozen cds you downloaded while at school or whatever. So the result is five million chodes who listen to maybe two minutes off a fifty minute album and then thinking they have an enlightened opinion thats worth a shit.
 
Not gonna try and start anything, but I'm defending myself here: Atleast where I live, no, you can't get a job when you're fifteen. Anywhere around here won't hire until you're sixteen, many until you're eighteen. Believe me, I've tried, I want to get a job so I can afford to support the scene I love so much. But, no one will hire anyone under sixteen around here.

Illinois law allows a 15 year old to get a job by completing a work permit, which you can obtain from your high school. I'm not sure what the laws are where you live, but check with a high school guidance counselor - they may be able to help you out if you really want to get a job.
 
Illinois law allows a 15 year old to get a job by completing a work permit, which you can obtain from your high school. I'm not sure what the laws are where you live, but check with a high school guidance counselor - they may be able to help you out if you really want to get a job.


I don't know how it is in Chicago, but most Illinois teens under 16 are stuck walking corn or beans with said work permit.
 
I don't know how it is in Chicago, but most Illinois teens under 16 are stuck walking corn or beans with said work permit.


There are plenty of Walmart's, and other retail opportunities around, regardless of how many farms may be around. Even small, local stores require employees. Then there's paper routes, cutting your neighbor's grass & shoveling snow, etc.

College towns have room for hundreds and thousands of kids.
 
I'm all for bands being able to make a living with their music. I buy a fair number of discs each year......usually more than I should at one certain festival in Atlanta. As much as I love the feeling of putting something new into my cd player and being blown away........I hate when that something new sucks. Now the core of my argument for sampling before buying, is the fact that the "label" produces a cd that costs literally pennies to make and turns around and tries to sell it to me for $15 maybe as much as $20.

That isn't necessarily a huge sum of money......but it is more than I'm willing to set on fire. That said.....I rarely buy a cd from a band I've never heard before without checking it out first. I absolutely LOVE bands that have decent media content on their websites.


By the way......I was 1 of the 1000 in that cd sales statistic.....you guys kick ass :-)


Thanks so much, and that means so much to a band that people enjoy their material enough to support them. Most bands of this genre do it not for money but for love of the music. But at some point to continue on and to grow we need substantial support. No one can buy all the CD's they would like to, we understand that and appreciate the people who buy our CD's and try hard to price them so people can without a huge hit to the pocket book. For a band to grow and be able to continue they need every penny they can get because touring expense eats alot of profit as well. Most labels of this genre don't have the money to put tons into the band, the band often has to supply atleast a portion of many of the costs.
 
<<Now the core of my argument for sampling before buying, is the fact that the "label" produces a cd that costs literally pennies to make and turns around and tries to sell it to me for $15 maybe as much as $20.>>

Whenever I read nonsense like this it always cracks me up.

Thanks for the laugh - I needed that!

Ken Golden
No doubt, Ken!! Hell, pennies don't even cover duplication cost! And please don't factor in studio time, mixing, mastering, or art work either - it might mess up their beautiful equation!:heh:
 
Illinois law allows a 15 year old to get a job by completing a work permit, which you can obtain from your high school. I'm not sure what the laws are where you live, but check with a high school guidance counselor - they may be able to help you out if you really want to get a job.

This tends to vary a lot by state. In Georgia, last I heard, you can only be hired at age fifteen if it's a day-shift job. There are also strict regulations regarding the type of work and the equipment used in the workplace.

For example, we couldn't have any kids working at PizzaTheHut because the big Hobart dough-mixer was verboten for anyone under 18 (and yeah, it could tear your arm off)....yet, at Dominos, we were able to hire fifteen-year-olds to work the phones because we didn't have any equipment that was restricted. (Oddly enough, a big ol' conveyer oven is apparently okay. :heh: )


Meanwhile, back on the topic, I don't download too much and tend to rely on advance promos, when we get them in at WREK. If I download something and I like it, it goes onto my 'buy it later in a big haul' list. Then, someone like Ken/Lasers Edge or The End Recs gets a big ol' healthy order from me.

I've had to slow the pace a bit since buying the house....instead of 3-5 massive binge-buys a year, I'm down to 2 or 3 plus ProgPower...but the CDs I like go onto that list.
 
Joe-×;6327834 said:
I cut and pasted this from the Circus Maximus thread since Glenn gave a global last warning in that thread and I've probably used up all my extra bonus personal goodwill last warnings, ha ha...

Who gives a rat's ass what they think? They make something you like, you buy it. (Or give the band members blowjobs - always thinking of you, Claus :p , smooch). If they don't make something you like, then you don't buy it. If they've got something to say they should write a song about it. The last thing the world needs is some self-absorbed egotistical jackass (besides me) blabbering on about their opinions on downloading. Just shut the fuck up and make music already. :rock:

what i was trying to get at, is whats more important to some of the bands

getting money, or getting their music out there

if im not going to buy CD1, from band1 either way, listen or not, would the band rather me download it or never hear them? thats what i want to know.
 
Not gonna try and start anything, but I'm defending myself here: Atleast where I live, no, you can't get a job when you're fifteen. Anywhere around here won't hire until you're sixteen, many until you're eighteen. Believe me, I've tried, I want to get a job so I can afford to support the scene I love so much. But, no one will hire anyone under sixteen around here.

mow grass
 
I am an avid BitTorrent user. I mostly use it to download TV shows that I've missed and want to see, but I occasionally use it to get porn, a movie, or a new CD release that I want to check out. Anything I download which warrants multiple listens/viewings (except the porn) gets bought as soon as I have the cash, and anything that I don't plan on watching/listening to again gets dumped.

One exception to this rule is the fact that I still have a downloaded copy of Morgana Lefay's new album, Aberrations of the Mind. I still have not been able to get a hard copy of this disc, because Black Mark Records are fucking incompetents and have not distributed it here yet. (Flashback to 2005, the last time Black Mark did this to ML.) In cases where the distributor of an album is fucking incompetent and not doing their job, I feel that keeping an illegal download of the album is justified until they can get their shit together. On a related note, I plan on downloading the last Virgin Steele album, and I will keep the download around until the disc gets released in the states, or until I find a reasonably-priced import copy. (I've been looking for a copy, reasonably-priced, since last ProgPower, but the cheapest I could find was 20-something dollars.) Make it available to me, and I will buy it.
 
l need a "Downloading is acceptable, because society is extremely mobile and can no longer be hampered by carrying around craploads of tangible product" option.

l have slowly moved away from CDs. l move too much, too fast & l can't carry the 1000+ CDs l have with me. Most are ripped now and on harddrives that can travel with me. Those CDs are in storage probably never to be seen again unless a harddrive goes down or l lose it. But, even then l can d/l the lost tunes instead of ripping if l so choose. l mostly download now...purchasing the downloads online when l can find them...if not, l know l can still access them by other means. l think hard copied material is becoming a thing of the past. Record companies cringe at the thought of this...but it is they that made an intangible...tangible.
 
Downloading for the purpose of previewing is fine, provided that which one likes is bought and that which isn’t liked is deleted. Keeping a downloaded song, transferring it to a playable device or disc, and using it without paying for it is stealing. Anyone who makes a practice of doing it is a thief. Not being able to afford music, supporting bands in other ways, protesting price gouging or any other excuse is merely a poor attempt to justify simple theft.

Some people talk of using file sharing to increase awareness of bands, which is supposed to theoretically be beneficial to said bands. While that may be somewhat true in a limited way for the bands in the various underground genres, it should be the artist’s choice as to what material should be freely disseminated, not the listener’s. Any band now has the opportunity to offer legitimate downloads from their websites or MySpace pages. One may notice that not all artists chose to do so, even those that play “our” type of music. Many bands even stream music on their sites while at the same time disallowing downloads. To claim that you are sharing an artist’s music that he/she/they do not wish to provide free in order to “help” the artist gain exposure implies that you know what’s better for the artists than they do. That is just plain fucking arrogant.

The reasoning that downloading is okay because it “helps” Wintersun absolutely cannot be extrapolated to Metallica or Byonce. That being the case, in order for the “exposure” logic to work an exposure threshold would have to be established whereby a download cutoff would go into effect when a band reached a predetermined level of popularity. Ridiculous bullshit. If Wintersun wishes to provide music for download they are free to do so, and they don’t need your help.

Furthermore, while downloading underground bands’ music doesn’t help the music industry overall, it isn’t these losses that are killing the industry. The main loss comes from the stealing from popular mainstream artists. Subculture communities tend to have marked delusions of grandeur in regards to how popular their particular type of music is. The metal community is no exception. However, the reality is that the thousands of downloads of various Progressive, Power, Black, Death, or Gothic Metal MP3’s pale in comparison to multimillions of mainstream pop, rock, rap, and country MP3’s.

It may also be true that new interests may be competing with the music industry for the public’s disposable cash. PC’s, game consoles, Sirius/XM, and even cell phones now divert money that may have once gone to music. However, the public will spend even more on these items and other indulgences, because they don’t have to make a choice between them and music. File sharing allows them to have all their toys while they get their music for free. It’s nice to have your cake and eat it too. To trivialize the losses the music industry suffers to file sharing, by pointing to other entertainment mediums is just naive. Yes, they have an effect but downloading actually helps them proliferate while diminishing the music industry.

While having this same (somewhat heated) discussion with a 23 year old female coworker, I was told that she hasn’t bought a CD in years. She does have a nice iPod and Picture phone though. I was also informed that not only does she do it, but “Everybody” does it. That is to say all those within her rather large peer group use LimeWire and BearShare. Multiply her attitude by millions of teens and twenty-somethings that share her attitude, and it is clear how much music isn’t being sold.
 
The biggest problem with downloading is that it makes everyone a goddamn critic.
I see this as more of a bonus that a problem. Anything that drowns out the trite chatter of paid shills hawking crap music in order to keep the free promos coming in is good to me.