The Evolution of Human Consciousness and the Idea of the Technological Singularity

If we halted technological progress at the point where those capable of utilising it benefited more than those not presently capable, we'd still be bare arsed and scratching ourselves with twigs... the nature of it is that some people get the new shit first, but it eventually filters down.

OK, all sounds good, but we had a "President" called Regan that sold the "trickle down" theory quite well, I lived through that period and most of us are still waiting for our drop... only to watch as the well was SUCKED dry by those that sold such theories.

Trick me one, shame on you... trick me twice... shame on me

I buy no such sales pitches and never really did, my 30 year predictions became true to the core the past 5 years. Stupid uneducated idjut that I am.
 
Average living conditions in the US are no better than 30 years ago? What the fuck have you guys been doing?
 
Sorry Jarman {Pat} I know your idea was to entertain the possibilities not the ethics or personal beliefs. This is just where pondering such a topic leads me because these are the possibilities that come to my mind. :)

No apologies necessary. I believe the ethical questions are important as well.

I apologize for not having been as active in this discussion, but I haven't had time at work to formulate good responses, and afterwards when I'm home I've been either wiped out or busy. :cool:

I've been enjoying reading all the posts here though, and I'm really happy that this is generating some good discussion.

I've recently started reading Hubert Dreyfus's What Computers Still Can't Do, so I'm hoping that I'll have some good points to bring up in the days to come. I'll also look at that article that Dak posted soon.
 
Far as I'm aware it's just the normal state of things for people to assume the world is going to shit and things used to be better. Personally I think I'd probably prefer my current life and technology to that of a 14th century peasant or the like.

I have not been arguing that transhumanism is some 'ideal' goal. I just think it's ignorant and lacking perspective to think there will be some obvious 'yes or no' choice to make regarding it. Ever since we started clothing ourselves we've been applying technology to making our person more useful for our goals. The differences in technology levels seem obvious only because we are familiar with / habituated to some and not with others...

First paragraph : I agree especially pesimists such as myself, but please refer to my last response. But it is a fact that classic periods are more highly regarded and respected and I believe I can visually or tonally understand why without bias and I do have great respect for much modern.

Progressive music I regard as highly as classical and get pounded for it. I love automotive styling, road racing, downhill skiing, loud guitar amplifiers.

However I would have been in my best element during the exploritory periods of this North American continent...I earned the nickname "woodchuck" decades ago from my buddies father and his friends. My buddies just call me asshole or fuck you... I just dont get it...

Second paragraph : Yes its our nature to discovery, explore, strive, dream, create and its an excellent feeling but refer back to the one eye blind scenerio. Just like population and the bibles more famous quote "go forth and multiply"... there comes a point when man has to say "ENOUGH"

I believe we would all have our jaw hanging on the floor if we ever saw the annual sums of money spent on "science" per year back just 50 years. If it was even possible to tally... yet look at all the problems in the world, all the poverty, all the starvation... which I care less about... see my population rants... which could still be adressed with some properly applied financing for at least education in effort to eliminate baby factory ignorance.

We cry if millions are spent on some environmental clean up, or economical "stimulous", welfare for the poor because we shipped job potential overseas... but never stop to think of the godzillions sunk into "research". We have a fucking probe on Mars that will never be fruitful, that cost 3 godzillion just to get there, yet we dont live in a world that can employ its entire population to fair sustainence.

God hating members of the "science" community will be the first to cry about the Church wealth, always having their hand out for donations... yet the entire "science" community lives and thrives on nothing but handouts... the worlds biggest hypocrites, totally, 100%, completely on par with "The Church"... even totally, 100% as self serving, deceiving and corrupt

Point being I believe our energy is misdirected. That and I called a spade a spade
 
No apologies necessary. I believe the ethical questions are important as well.

I apologize for not having been as active in this discussion, but I haven't had time at work to formulate good responses, and afterwards when I'm home I've been either wiped out or busy. :cool:

I've been enjoying reading all the posts here though, and I'm really happy that this is generating some good discussion.

I've recently started reading Hubert Dreyfus's What Computers Still Can't Do, so I'm hoping that I'll have some good points to bring up in the days to come. I'll also look at that article that Dak posted soon.

Its your post so I dont mind going off topic for a second.

You are working now or still in college ? or both ?

I perfer Richard Dreyfus in _____ Opus... :heh: Thats something pure I can connect with.
 
Average living conditions in the US are no better than 30 years ago? What the fuck have you guys been doing?

No way man, we sent the work for DMF's (dumb mother fuckers) such as myself overseas. Blue collar has gone no where but backwards for the past 30 years. America has sold its soul man... "where the fuck have you been"... :heh:

Guess you dont read my rants or are so baffeled by them that you ignore them. Cant blame you but I really dont make things up.

I'll give you one example, you may remember from the past. My ex is a warehouse worker.. so is my best friend and drummer. For the past near 15 years the insurance companies have taken every raise my ex got immeadiatly after getting them, like the same pay check and many years exceeding the raise. Now to refer to my last "science" rant, we all know insurance money, that is whats left after padding insurance employees pockets goes to "science". AKA - the medical industry so they can help people "live" longer... that and pad their pockets too. Yet most just die anyhow but contributions through this support these hands out people and abit extra for research in the next way to sell hope to the dying... walking talking deadmen.
 
A reply to replies that computers can't be smarter then the programmer. if a computer can process information faster then a human brain, I think it has great capability of being "smarter" but still not able to think as freely as humans do.
 

Im not really sure what this means or how factual it really is. Reason being I dont know if it accounts for how a large percentage of our population got looking good through the scam of extended credit... if it accounts for the growing welfare state... or how offset it is due to the rapid growth of the tech industry which certainly doesnt employ that much of the country. Or offset by commercial/residential construction which helped the otherwise declining blue collar work. Which as we know now was all part of the extended credit scam with people loosing their houses at an alarming rate and commercial buildings sitting empty. Or offset by corporate and share holder profits due to downsizing and selling off assets.

For a large part we have been living in smoke and mirrors in this country. The bulk of the population is 90 days from bankrupcy, all they have to do is loose one of the houshold jobs and that is happening at a alarming rate.

Do you see this cliff at the end of those charts ?

Do those charts account for a country that is in debt I dont know how much per capa. I guess I could figure it out if I knew the exact debt and census totals (which are not factual either)

Call me old school but as far as I know if you owe more than your assets you are really no where and this is the case with a large percentage of our population, many with NO solid security.

But this is not another economics topic so I guess we better start building those cyborgs so we can perpetuate another smoke screen that looks good until they "take over the world", then they can "cook the books" so we continue as happy puppets.
 
A reply to replies that computers can't be smarter then the programmer. if a computer can process information faster then a human brain, I think it has great capability of being "smarter" but still not able to think as freely as humans do.

Right, I quess the question is if they are capable of independant thought to go off on their own and set a path of dominance.

Im not educated enough in tech stuff so I wouldnt know, at one point it seems impossible at another point it seems if they contain all the information, all of it that it could be processed into some degree of independant thought.

Im not scared, I have 15-20 years tops and "Im outta here"... LOL
 
Call me old school but as far as I know if you owe more than your assets you are really no where and this is the case with a large percentage of our population, many with NO solid security.

Your bank statement is only of relevance in predicting and planning your future life. Owing more than your assets just means you need to work to live, hardly an unusual human condition.
 
Your bank statement is only of relevance in predicting and planning your future life. Owing more than your assets just means you need to work to live, hardly an unusual human condition.

Hey... you might have a future as a credit man in the US... we buy that line of crap lock stock and barrel.

But I say you are really unaware of the credit and financial situation in this country and it appears pointless to widen your understanding of it.

This was America in the 80's and 90's :headbang:

This is America today after the sun glasses fell off and the head stopped bobbing long enough to gather balance :OMG:
 
Its your post so I dont mind going off topic for a second.

You are working now or still in college ? or both ?

I perfer Richard Dreyfus in _____ Opus... :heh: Thats something pure I can connect with.

I graduated and am now working full time. And yes, Mr. Holland's Opus is a great film. I'll post here again over the weekend, hopefully with something to stimulate the conversation more. Although don't get me wrong; I've really enjoyed where this has gone.
 
Razoredge is right on regarding the economic situation. What people don't realize is that the exchange currency (the dollar) has been devalued much more than wages have increased. So they work the same for less pay (in purchasing power terms) and as interest rates have remained low their savings are actually losing value while sitting in the bank.

Also, since most Americans have lived outside their means for the past few decades, they don't actually own most of what they have, and what they do own has no real value.

It is a vampiric system built to funnel real wealth to the top and when the populace corpse is sucked dry, vast amounts of the population will be liquidated since the man and brain power we provided to create the machines to replace us is no longer necessary to the "elites". The majority of humans are "useless eaters", to use their own terms.
 
Hey guys, sorry about the little hiatus. I really like where the conversation has gone so far, but I have something else I'd like to introduce into the discussion: Hubert Dreyfus's philosophical critique of artifical intelligence: What Computers Still Can't Do.

The introduction of this book alone is some sixty odd pages, and I've yet to really get into the meat of his argument, but to summarize briefly:

Dreyfus bases his argument off the fact that in order to program "intelligence" into computers, one must work with symbols. All computer programming revolves around our ability to create specific symbols that stand for something and which the computer's "brain" can then identify and work off of.

Dreyfus explains, quite early in his introduction, that in the early days of AI scientists believed that the more information received by a computer, the smarter and more capable it would become. After all, the more information we humans know, the smarter we become; furthermore, we're able to answer questions faster and "operate" faster overall when we understand more. Therefore, it should follow that the more information plugged into a computer's hard drive (or however those things work :cool:) the faster and more intelligent it will become.

However, scientists encountered a problem when they tried to execute this theory in practice. Computers operate slower the more information is fed into them. Dreyfus published his then controversial treatise (which has since been basically proven true), arguing that because computers rely on symbols to understand information, they can never fully attain the experience of living or "being in the world." Dreyfus's argument stems from philosopher Martin Heidegger's theory that human consciousness and "being" are very unique and specific... let's say occurrences... that computers cannot experience. They lack the human quality of "being-in-the-world" (many of Heidegger's terms are awkwardly translated into English) and thus lack the human understanding of relationships, experience, time and inherent knowledge.

I'd like to post an excerpt from Dreyfus's introduction to illustrate this point (bear in mind, this was written some decades ago, in the 70s I believe); he is addressing a quote made by Douglas Lenat regarding "ontological engineering," or the process of forming ontological relationships in computer programming:

"Lenat is clear that his ontology must be able to represent our commonsense background knowledge- the understanding we normally take for granted. He would hold, however, that it is premature to try to give a computer the skills and feelings required for actually coping with things and people. No one believes anymore that by 2001 we will have an artifical intelligence like HAL. Lenat would be satisfied if the Cyc [AI project started by Lenat at MCC] data base could understand books and articles, for example, if it could answer questions about their content and gain knowledge from them. In fact, it is a hard problem even to make a data base that can understand simple sentences in ordinary English, since such understanding requires vast background knowledge. Lenat collects some excellent examples of the difficulty involved. Take the following sentence:

'Mary saw a dog in the window. She wanted it.'

Lenat asks:

'Does "it" refer to the dog or the window? What if we'd said "She smashed it," or "She pressed her nose up against it"?'

Note that the sentence seems to appeal to our ability to imagine how we would feel in the situation, rather than requiring us to consult facts about dogs and windows and how a typical human being would react. It also draws on know-how for getting around in the world, such as how to get closer to something on the other side of a barrier."


So, we can easily see how Dreyfus illustrates the problem. This is very rudimentary stuff as far as he is concerned (although I found it interesting and fascinating :cool:); also, considering the fact that Lenat himself is an AI researcher, we know that many of these problems have already been taken into account by AI supporters and solutions are being investigated. That's all I'll post for now, because anymore would be an overload, I think; but I'll go back and reread the intro and hopefully find some more interesting topics to post. Furthermore, the deeper I get into this book the more discussion material it will provide (I hope).

If anyone wants to comment on this or branch off and bring up another related topic, feel free.
 
Dreyfus seems to be playing shitty word games, to my mind...
"Computers are not human, therefore they are not human"
If 'intelligence' is held to be a purely human characteristic, then of course they cannot be intelligent.

I could just as well argue that because humans rely on electrical impulses to understand information, they can never fully attain the experience of living or "being in the world." A valid argument along such a line would have to explain *why* the method of understanding was of any relevance. When we assess other humans or animals as intelligent, it is not because we have pulled them apart and determined 'how' they understanding things, but simply that we have observed by their actions that they 'do' understand things.
 
Dreyfus seems to be playing shitty word games, to my mind...
"Computers are not human, therefore they are not human"
If 'intelligence' is held to be a purely human characteristic, then of course they cannot be intelligent.

I think Dreyfus is drawing a line between "intelligence" and "facts." What we call artifical intelligence is basically a list of facts rendered into symbolic format and fed into a computer's memory. Then, once they've interpreted these facts, they are able to answer questions put to them (in theory).

The problem lies in the difference between human experience and a simple list of facts. Whereas all a computer has to consult when faced with a problem is a list of facts and laws (if this, then that, and so on and so forth), humans draw on previous experience.

If we take the sentence that Dreyfus used as an example, we know that a human would most likely interpret it to mean that it was the dog the girl wanted, whereas the computer might be confused (is "it" the dog or the window?). Now, say we try and take it a step further; we could plug symbols of "experience" into the computer. For example: "in this situation, 'it' refers to the dog." However, that will only work for one situation. What if we tried to say to the computer "All sentences such as this refer to the direct object." But this may not necessarily be true; for instance, what if the second part of the phrase read "She smashed it." The computer might still understand it as one of the previously categorized sentences.

I could just as well argue that because humans rely on electrical impulses to understand information, they can never fully attain the experience of living or "being in the world." A valid argument along such a line would have to explain *why* the method of understanding was of any relevance. When we assess other humans or animals as intelligent, it is not because we have pulled them apart and determined 'how' they understanding things, but simply that we have observed by their actions that they 'do' understand things.

Can you clarify this a bit more? I don't think Dreyfus would refute that our brains use electrical impulses to operate. The source of their energy is of no consequence; I think it's the method by which they operate.

In regards to your last sentence, I think that Dreyfus's argument shows that there are certain things beyond a computer's understanding, which are easily understood by human brains. He's saying that human consciousness has more to draw from than a computer; concepts of time, understanding that it's a being existing in time, and it has experience and intuition at its disposal. Computers have no concept of time or experience. These can be programmed into a computer through ontological engineering, but it still forms a rigid set of rules that a computer cannot break.

I'm interested to hear more of your argument. I think it might boil down to just how much like a computer our brain really is (personally, I don't think they operate in similar fashions).
 
I think Dreyfus is drawing a line between "intelligence" and "facts." What we call artifical intelligence is basically a list of facts rendered into symbolic format and fed into a computer's memory. Then, once they've interpreted these facts, they are able to answer questions put to them (in theory).

The problem lies in the difference between human experience and a simple list of facts. Whereas all a computer has to consult when faced with a problem is a list of facts and laws (if this, then that, and so on and so forth), humans draw on previous experience.

Ok, so we program it to synthesise prior experience into more facts and laws. Tada! At no point do we as humans draw on 'previous experience' directly, we draw on our limited, stored, interpretation. I touch an electric fence and I add that to my body of 'facts' and 'laws'. It hurts a lot, so I include quite a broad definition of 'electric fence' in my 'do not touch this shit' law.

If we take the sentence that Dreyfus used as an example, we know that a human would most likely interpret it to mean that it was the dog the girl wanted, whereas the computer might be confused (is "it" the dog or the window?). Now, say we try and take it a step further; we could plug symbols of "experience" into the computer. For example: "in this situation, 'it' refers to the dog." However, that will only work for one situation. What if we tried to say to the computer "All sentences such as this refer to the direct object." But this may not necessarily be true; for instance, what if the second part of the phrase read "She smashed it." The computer might still understand it as one of the previously categorized sentences.

Well, nobody said programming an AI was easy :lol: Context sensitivity is tricky. The case you describe doesn't seem so bad though. To best determine 'it', look at the action (wanting), look at who is performing it (Mary / she), and look at the possibilities of 'it' - either dog or window. It is clear from the sentence structure that the dog is more relevant than the window - 'in a window' is used as a description of the dogs location. A default position of assuming 'it' to be the more relevant object makes sense. Then for the case of 'smashed' a simple contrast between the likelihood of the word being used to refer to dog or window would do in this case. You could go one step further and determine that 'in a window' actually generally refers to 'behind a window', so Mary is likely unable to smash the dog, without some intervening event involving the window, or Mary's movement.

Yes, the logic is not going to be simple and obvious - intelligence is complicated shit...


Can you clarify this a bit more? I don't think Dreyfus would refute that our brains use electrical impulses to operate. The source of their energy is of no consequence; I think it's the method by which they operate.

How is the method of operation so different? They store information, interpret it, and act on it.

In regards to your last sentence, I think that Dreyfus's argument shows that there are certain things beyond a computer's understanding, which are easily understood by human brains. He's saying that human consciousness has more to draw from than a computer; concepts of time, understanding that it's a being existing in time, and it has experience and intuition at its disposal. Computers have no concept of time or experience. These can be programmed into a computer through ontological engineering, but it still forms a rigid set of rules that a computer cannot break.

What is a concept of time or experience? I can make a computer tell me the time, predict the future, recall the past, condense past events into a summary. I can get it to swear to me that it has a concept of time and experience too :lol:

Once a computer is programmed in such a way that it programs itself in such a way that the end result is too complex for us to understand the whole in terms of the parts (emergent complexity), they will appear no more bound by a 'rigid set of rules' than humans, probably less so because of the speed of adaptation and change possible.
 
You're bringing up some really good points, and I don't necessarily disagree with them; but I'm going to keep playing your opponent just to see what more we can see. :cool:

You bring up context sensitivity, which is (as you've already insinuated) very important when programming AI. You also asked "What is a concept of time or experience?" I'm going to introduce another situation and see how much more complicated the scenario can become: a game of chess.

This is all very similar to an argument made by Dreyfus.

A chess program on a computer works in terms of the situation on the board, which Dreyfus says is "characterized in terms of context-free features: the position and color of each piece on the board. All possible legal moves and the positions which result are then defined in terms of these features." Computers calculate large numbers of alternative positions and moves based on these situational features.

Human beings avoid calculating large numbers of alternatives by "zeroing in" on the appropriate area in which to look for a move, as Dreyfus says. By playing over book games chess masters are able to develop the ability to identify present positions as being similar to positions that occurred in older games. These previous positions have already been analyzed in terms of what Dreyfus calls their "significant aspects." These memorized positions focus the player's attention on critical aspects of his or her current position.

Now, Dreyufs makes a clear distinction between the "features" recognized by a computer and the "aspects" recognized by a human. He claims that in a computer model "the situation is defined in terms of the features, whereas in human play situational understanding is prior to aspect specification."

Now, it follows that if players can learn from book games then we should be able to plug these classic scenarios into a computer's memory, thus allowing the program to also recognize and compare its current situations with classic situations and zero in on the appropriate area in which to move; but "similarity cannot be defined as having a large number of pieces on identical squares. Two positions which are identical except for one pawn moved to an adjacent square can be totally different, while two positions can be similar although no pieces are on the same square in each."

Dreyfus writes that given the exponential growth of alternative moves it won't be possible without better "tree-searching heuristics" to significantly increase the computer's power to look ahead. What it boils down to is how far computers which use tactics based on context-free features can make up by "sheer brute force" for the use of long range strategy, human recognition of similarity to previous games, and zeroing in on crucial aspects.

Being able to see similarity to previous classic cases and to recognize similar aspects plays an important role in the shaping of one's expertise. These abilities are not, however, based on context-free features, but rather depend on the overall situation. Therefore "they cannot be captured in the situation - action rule formalism" that computers operate by. Dreyfus argues that, because of this, we can expect "in every area where expertise is based on experience to continue to find some experts who outperform even the most sophisticated programs."

Bear in mind that Dreyfus did admit that only until we devise better methods to compose more precise "tree-searching heuristics" (the method by which a computer can assess a scenario- in this case, chess- and compare it to others) will humans outperform computers. However, I think the point is that he believes programs can never become more precise and capable than the human brain in accessing this previously acquired information.