The Music Theory Thread

ShredManWalking

ShredManWalking

Hit man for the Order
Dec 5, 2002
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Kent State University
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Hey guys. This one's for the music nerds, much like myself. It is here that you can discuss cool scales, modes, odd time signatures, odd chords, intervals...etc. just whatever the hell music theory stuff you're thinking about.

Allow me to start:

What do you think sounds eviler in metal, diminished or augmented intervals? Allow me to give cool examples.

Augmented - slow bass line in Iron Maiden's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner"

Diminished - a lot of Malmsteen licks...

Personally, I think it depends on the song, progression in the song. It also depends on if the diminished or augmented interval is used harmonically or melodically. In some situations, even a major chord or scale can sound evil. That's just my take on the situation.

Actually... if you want to hear bizarre, try improvising the whole-tone scale over an augmented chord. Allan Holdsworth does that a lot.
 
Well, since it's here.. that's ok too.

I don't know about which sounds eviler but, I generally rarely use the augmented sound, unless maybe I'm tapping a really wide stretch type run. I think the diminshed scale and diminished arpeggios sound really evil and cool, but the most evil scale of all, I think is just the natural minor. Such a sad and epic scale.

On a different note, just wanted to mention some of my favorite scales lately:
Lydian mode (really cool replacement for that boring old major scale)
Aeolian Major (it's one of the modes of melodic minor, it's just a natural minor scale with a major 3rd. Sounds really classical. Think Paganini's 24th.)
Hirajoshi (minor scale without the 4th and 7th) - exotic

I also came up with a cool Egyptian scale. Sounds good in F#. Try it:
F# G B C D# E F#
 
diminished can sound really happy sometimes in jazz,for a cool diminished interval lick, play two minor arpeggios the first decending and the 2nd ascending,such that the two roots have a diminished interval between them

ex: F minor and B minor, now thats evil

and about augumented, sometimes i play augumented chords to pass between scale notes chromaticly and it always sounds kinda powerish happy :p
 
It all depends of the context of the song as you said, an augmented chord can sound anything from happy to sad to evil to whatever depending on the chords around it, same with the diminished chord.

Sergre..., my favourite scales are the super lochrian (7th mode of the melodic minor scale) I use it over a dominant7b5 chord, or to add a bit of spice to the usual lochrian over a minor7b5, as well.
The dominant pentatonic is very funky too, it can be used over a number of things, its a pentatonic version of both the mixolydian scale and even the phrygian dominant scale. It has both a bluesy and a interesting feel.
But i always use a dorian, it just has a cool sound to it, as you said its more interesting than a normal minor, depends on the way you use it of course.
Actually... if you want to hear bizarre, try improvising the whole-tone scale over an augmented chord. Allan Holdsworth does that a lot.
Click to expand...
try improvising a whole tone over a #9 or b9. But dont' fit the whole tone onto the root, try making it hit the #9 or b9, its truly bizarre, but it can work sometimes making you feel like you can play more outside than Allan hehe.
 
i've have learnt nearly all my theory from studdying old-school style and jazz, so your completly right DeadHastur
 
Mr. Shred-ididle said:
Sergre..., my favourite scales are the super lochrian (7th mode of the melodic minor scale) I use it over a dominant7b5 chord, or to add a bit of spice to the usual lochrian over a minor7b5, as well.
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention that I also use it over a minor7b5 a tone below, for eg. I use a A super locrian over a Gminor7b5. Or more appropriatly labeled Aoelianb5 (6th mode of Melodic Minor). all kickass scales.
These are fun to play as you have two minor7b5 arpeggio's only two semitones apart, imagine the sweeping possibillities mwahaha.
 
Don't play one scale if you want to sound bizarre. For example, if you are playing over a couple of minor chords (you know, I'm getting very simple here, to get my point straight), over each of the chords you could play several different modes, such as dorian, phrygian or aeolian, and get a really bizarre sound... Dont abuse it, though, you will start sounding awfully bad... :)
 
Well, Shreddy, you seem to know your jazz thoery. I understand everything you're saying, but I'm not experienced enough to be able to apply such theory in a real life situation. For instance, if I'm given a m7b5 chord, I don't think right away, "Hey, a super locrian scale would work well here." Something like that takes me a while to figure out. Hopefully someday, I'll be proficient enough in jazz to be able to improvise over complex chords, but for now, the only backing tracks I can jam along with and honestly know what I'm doing are simple major/minor/blues, type things.

In my 4 and a half years of playing, I think I made the mistake of dedicating too much time to chops and not enough time to understanding music and becoming a better player.
 
well Serge, although your comment was not intended for me, I can say that you are making a mistake trying to play a certain mode to match a chord. Althoguh it is valid, it is not a good practice, since you are limiting yourself to a chord instead of playing through the chord (I may be difficult to understand, as English is not my native language, but it is something like you should use the chord, not limit to it).
 
ElPredicador said:
well Serge, although your comment was not intended for me, I can say that you are making a mistake trying to play a certain mode to match a chord. Althoguh it is valid, it is not a good practice, since you are limiting yourself to a chord instead of playing through the chord (I may be difficult to understand, as English is not my native language, but it is something like you should use the chord, not limit to it).
Click to expand...
I don't see how Serge or I or anyone is making the 'mistake' of trying to become better players by diving further and further into theory or modes or whatever, it will only make us stronger and more knowledgable players. You say we're limiting ouselves to the chord, while we are actually just learning all the different variations of ways we can play over the chord by learning all the different modes or scales you can play over them, thus meaning we are just learning more ways to 'use' the chord.
this is a fantastic comment by the legendary Frank Gambale;

I think it's important to always be learning. If you don't know what to play on an E7#9 chord, then that's what you should practice. Find the scale, harmonize it, learn it's arpeggios, it's pentatonics and play with the notes. Sometimes if you sit for 10 minutes without the guitar just to decide what you are going to learn in your practice time, that's good. If you can play over an Emin7 chord, move on, it will still be there when you get back. The bottom line is Quality time is more important the Quantity time.

But i do understand where you are coming rom, and I also agree with some of it. It's not like we are intentionally 'playing outside' ALL the time to sound clever and 'bazarre', but when used effectivly it can improve your playing heaps. It's all about what sounds good to the ear. Its just the same with speed/shred/chops, when overused it can sound stale, boring and shitty. But when used in the right ways, it can sound amazing....same thing goes for theory.

And I'm not flaming or bitterly aurguing with you in any way, I'm just objecting me opinion in a now-made deabte. It's all cool and fun.:)
 
Hey shred-ididle, it's not about not learning theory, it's about using the theory, and not play through formulas: "oh, I have a major chord so I will play on an Ionian mode". When I solo, I try to see the melody in my head and then play it (it of course not always work, since I'm no master nor anything near it). You'll see that there are a lot of jazz players that when they are improvising, they sing the melody at the same time. That's a consequence of playing like I say.
 
ElPredicador said:
well Serge, although your comment was not intended for me, I can say that you are making a mistake trying to play a certain mode to match a chord. Althoguh it is valid, it is not a good practice, since you are limiting yourself to a chord instead of playing through the chord (I may be difficult to understand, as English is not my native language, but it is something like you should use the chord, not limit to it).
Click to expand...

Well, I know the best way to go about jazz solos, at least I think I know, is to loosely follow the chords, instead of confining yourself to a scale or mode, but nonetheless, having good knowledge of modes and scales just adds another trick to your bag. Nonetheless, as an inexperienced jazz guitarist, it's much easier for me to play a scale I know(adding passing tones and stuff like that too), than to follow a chord that can contain up to 6 or 7 notes.
 
Scourge of Amalek said:
Can anyone tell me what is the name of the fifth mode (dominant) of the harmonic minor scale?
[E F G# A B C D E]
How the hell would you describe that scale? A phyrigian #3 or something like that? Does it even have a name?
Click to expand...

Phrygian Dominant. The "Inferno" Scale. Yeah, it basically IS a phrygian with a major 3rd.
 
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