The News Thread

You're concerned about a Cold War but then saying that we should have directly attacked Russia and China on the heels of WWII to prevent Communism from taking lives. Was that even feasible? Assuming it is feasible, would it have saved lives?

definitely said an invasion of either would be WW3...proxy wars are also interventions...

Comparing known death counts from historical events to the counterfactual of "less" deaths if there had been some earlier course of action isn't appealing to examples - it's engaging in counterfactuals.

it's like you're just catching on to what was being debated and what goes on in the mind of politcians...

What would intervention in Europe have looked like?

there's many plausible scenarios that all include 'deaths' but suggesting that intervention would have caused more deaths is a stretch that you've never tried to quantify with any plausible theory

I think Russia has a legitimate "interest" in the region.

i never realized you were so pro-russia until now. That Hitler shit from awhile back and now this, it's so strange. geographic proximity determines 'just' interest but nothing else?
 
definitely said an invasion of either would be WW3...proxy wars are also interventions...

it's like you're just catching on to what was being debated and what goes on in the mind of politcians...

What? You said you only wanted to use historical examples not theory and counterfactuals like I was trying to do. I point out you are also using theory and counterfactuals and you try to lol at me for just "catching on"? You need to calm down a bit.

there's many plausible scenarios that all include 'deaths' but suggesting that intervention would have caused more deaths is a stretch that you've never tried to quantify with any plausible theory

Not intervening in WWI would have meant you could subtract US deaths at a minimum. You might also have had a detente relatively quickly without US involvement (because of the stalemate), which wouldn't add many other bodies. With a balanced detente, you wouldn't have the vindictive French causing the Weimar catastrophe and subsequent rise of Hitler. With these problems not affecting Europe, the problems in Russia may or may not have been able to be intervened on early, or "WWII" would have simply been the West against Russia and we potentially prevent global Communism/the Cold War/it's proxy wars.

There's one possible outcome.


i never realized you were so pro-russia until now. That Hitler shit from awhile back and now this, it's so strange. geographic proximity determines 'just' interest but nothing else?

lol "pro-Russia". Let's put it another way. The US is around 400 miles from Guatemala. What if the only port the US had in the Pacific was in Guatemala. Torn apart by drug cartel fomented war, Russia (thousands of miles away) decided to intervene against the US friendly authoritarian leader of the state proper (while also supplying the cartels). You'd have a goddamn fit. How about some consistency or simply admit your only interest is Empire.

The US had a fit about Russian support of Cuba and we nearly had a nuclear event because of it, but suddenly it's totes different in Syria.
 
You said you only wanted to use historical examples not theory and counterfactuals like I was trying to do. I point out you are also using theory and counterfactuals and you try to lol at me for just "catching on"?

I said you only rely on theory, nothing historical. I also never said shit about counterfactuals, but you just retort just to retort. the reply previous to this shows you aren't are on the same wavelength with me on what is being discussed, this is a "put yourself in a high level official/presidente zapatos -- what say you" yet it's been estranged, by you.

There's one possible outcome.

we joined WW1 in 17 and the treaty was singed in 19? it's a stretch to say we prolonged the war, especially since it ended without a formal invasion of German lines. Don't think anyone was going to be less upset at Germany, but the economy would have faltered regardless due to the massive debt, spending and inflation caused by the war.

How about some consistency or simply admit your only interest is Empire.

My interest is in Empire, my position has been quite clear. The world needs Empires, quite frankly and maybe one day that changes, but its going to shift to a global one rather than a U.S. one

But acting like Russia has a say while we do not is ridiculous, their proximity to every nation is likely closer to us outside of Central/South America and they are pretty irrelevant. But I guess with this example you're totally fine with Russia fucking off in the Arctic since it's closer to us? Again, they are the ones escalating there, bringing over thousands of troops in arctic training environments as a show of force, which we reciprocate in Norway.

Just because Russia has a legitimate interest in Syria does not mean they are the only ones to do so nor supercede anyone else. Acting like Russia has forgotten about the Cold War is a ridiculous assumption not grounded in reality, quite frankly.

The US had a fit about Russian support of Cuba and we nearly had a nuclear event because of it, but suddenly it's totes different in Syria.

are you saying we are "the Soviets in Syria" ? :lol: what a ridiculous analogy. Why reach when you have plenty of mid 20th century options and examples of proxy wars?
 
I said you only rely on theory, nothing historical. I also never said shit about counterfactuals, but you just retort just to retort. the reply previous to this shows you aren't are on the same wavelength with me on what is being discussed, this is a "put yourself in a high level official/presidente zapatos -- what say you" yet it's been estranged, by you.

When considering you can't even write in complete sentences, and those sentence fragments are half non-sequitur, it's obvious that we aren't on the same wavelength.

we joined WW1 in 17 and the treaty was singed in 19? it's a stretch to say we prolonged the war, especially since it ended without a formal invasion of German lines. Don't think anyone was going to be less upset at Germany, but the economy would have faltered regardless due to the massive debt, spending and inflation caused by the war.

If the US hadn't entered the war, it's pretty obvious Germany would have won probably by the mid 1918s at the latest. So the US did prolong it, and added many casualties, and created the conditions for Hitler and maybe others. Imperial Germany wasn't any worse an empire than any of the other aspirants. We took many ideas from the Bismarckian Germany.

My interest is in Empire, my position has been quite clear. The world needs Empires, quite frankly and maybe one day that changes, but its going to shift to a global one rather than a U.S. one

But acting like Russia has a say while we do not is ridiculous, their proximity to every nation is likely closer to us outside of Central/South America and they are pretty irrelevant. But I guess with this example you're totally fine with Russia fucking off in the Arctic since it's closer to us? Again, they are the ones escalating there, bringing over thousands of troops in arctic training environments as a show of force, which we reciprocate in Norway.

Russia and the US both have territory in/bordering the arctic, so I don't see how that's a relevant counter. At least you admitted you're simply interested in Empire. We can dispense with other excuses. People that want empire just need to simply own it and make relevant arguments justifying Empire. Not appealing to democracy or "saving lives".


Just because Russia has a legitimate interest in Syria does not mean they are the only ones to do so nor supercede anyone else. Acting like Russia has forgotten about the Cold War is a ridiculous assumption not grounded in reality, quite frankly.

are you saying we are "the Soviets in Syria" ? :lol: what a ridiculous analogy. Why reach when you have plenty of mid 20th century options and examples of proxy wars?

Where did I say Russia forgot about the Cold War? Your reading comprehension needs work. I think it's still ongoing/would be ongoing anyway. Frankly I don't see why Russia couldn't be a US ally rather than a Chinese ally but we've drawn things that way.

Because the proxy war here isn't about preventing the spread of control (Korea, Vietnam). It's about eliminating an already existent control, and a critical control for the other party of interest.
 
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lol. This is why death panels are actually a good thing; there is no reason to support the life of someone obese, or with self-inflicted HIV, or smoking-caused lung cancer, or etc. Of course, it would be good to know how European nations compare to really draw any strong conclusions from this study regarding the extent to which the 1% is responsible for costs. It could also be that the 1% are people with Crohn's disease, and that the real cause is pharmaceutical companies bleeding insurance companies (and therefore taxpayers) dry.
 
The fact that the US has been attempting to topple Assad for years now - in spite of Russian interests - would make it appear that we may already have a Cold War-lite ongoing.

Where did I say Russia forgot about the Cold War?

quite frankly made it seem like the 21st century being a lite-cold war was not in the context the entire time, leaving a reasonable assumption to think there wasn't a cold war going on, in your estimation.

People that want empire just need to simply own it and make relevant arguments justifying Empire. Not appealing to democracy

for one, how isn't it obvious one is for empire if one believes in global 'big brothers' ?

secondly, democracy has a correlation with less violence, so advocating for democracy can rely purely in economic and political motives. Which is then where external forces exerting democracy is good for the big brothers & internally, is good for the local populace.

When considering you can't even write in complete sentences, and those sentence fragments are half non-sequitur

:thumbsup: sorry that i had to hold your hand through 15 posts to follow a simple discussion because you really just wanted to be all pro-Russia in all of this.

and created the conditions for Hitler and maybe others. Imperial Germany wasn't any worse an empire than any of the other aspirants. We took many ideas from the Bismarckian Germany.

to establish that it was in our best interest to allow Germany to be the 'champion' of Europe at this time period is going to take more work then just saying "they weren't worse than anyone else"

Frankly I don't see why Russia couldn't be a US ally rather than a Chinese ally but we've drawn things that way.

maybe because Russian identity is anti Western while Chinese hasn't been since Mao's death? And China's rise is largely because of U.S. trade and interaction while Russia's downfall has been because of direct and indirect U.S. involvement? These rose colored Rooskie glasses are coming out strongly.

And yesterday Tillerson tells Putin to disavow support to Assad. Let's see how quickly Putin sides with us. /sarcasm

It's about eliminating an already existent control, and a critical control for the other party of interest.

when you frame it at this macro level, any proxy war is analogous to Syria today. One would only resort to an example of 1960s Cuba as a claim that we are setting up Syria as a location to inflict massive damage to the Russian state, which is what the Soviets did with Cuba.
 
This is why death panels are actually a good thing; there is no reason to support the life of someone obese, or with self-inflicted HIV, or smoking-caused lung cancer, or etc.

I took a shitty sociology course about death and it was a staggering high number of health costs simply go to those terminally ill. not even cancer, just old and prolonging for weeks, months etc.

this article about Haiti is basically us in a way;

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/grieving-haitians-lifetime-debt-fund-funerals-46614017
 
the real cause is pharmaceutical companies bleeding insurance companies (and therefore taxpayers) dry.

This but also hospitals bleeding them dry for services. $15 cups of orange juice, we never see the bill. A thousand dollars to sleep in a bed for one night. Etc.

If we put regulations and limits on the amount of profit that can be made from medical goods and services then we would lower insurance costs across the board.
 
If we put regulations and limits on the amount of profit that can be made from medical goods and services then we would lower insurance costs across the board.

Completely the wrong approach, and in practice will only make collusion between government and business more easy since they can mutually negotiate "fair" prices however they like. The limits should be on the government subsidies for medical care; you consume your allotted $X/yr of medical care, you pay for the rest.
 
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Wouldn't you also severely undercut developments in services and treatments?

Not necessarily, if we make a diminishing returns clause. When new treatments hit the market the profit cap is high, and then over time the profit cap lowers down to a fair level. Then there's incentive to develop new treatments which will be more profitable
 
Not necessarily, if we make a diminishing returns clause. When new treatments hit the market the profit cap is high, and then over time the profit cap lowers down to a fair level. Then there's incentive to develop new treatments which will be more profitable

Tying profits to patents seems like the most direct approach. Allow companies to recoup the cost of investment by some arbitrary multiplier, then turn things over to generics and the free market. Also, stop collusion between the FDA and companies that allows monopolies to stay beyond patent duration (e.g. EpiPen).
 
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quite frankly made it seem like the 21st century being a lite-cold war was not in the context the entire time, leaving a reasonable assumption to think there wasn't a cold war going on, in your estimation.

for one, how isn't it obvious one is for empire if one believes in global 'big brothers' ?

secondly, democracy has a correlation with less violence, so advocating for democracy can rely purely in economic and political motives. Which is then where external forces exerting democracy is good for the big brothers & internally, is good for the local populace.

You mean lower as in democratic countries don't fight each other. But what happens when there's not the "evil undemocratic regimes" to fight? Support for being the global police has always been couched in very non-imperial terms. "Safeguarding democracy". Wilson, a notable early political Progressive, championed the right to "national self-determination". One of the reasons for intervention against aggressor nations is the appeal to self-determination. However, when one gets past this glossy facade, the underlying realities of power - determination - is rather ugly.

:thumbsup: sorry that i had to hold your hand through 15 posts to follow a simple discussion because you really just wanted to be all pro-Russia in all of this.

to establish that it was in our best interest to allow Germany to be the 'champion' of Europe at this time period is going to take more work then just saying "they weren't worse than anyone else"

maybe because Russian identity is anti Western while Chinese hasn't been since Mao's death? And China's rise is largely because of U.S. trade and interaction while Russia's downfall has been because of direct and indirect U.S. involvement? These rose colored Rooskie glasses are coming out strongly.

And yesterday Tillerson tells Putin to disavow support to Assad. Let's see how quickly Putin sides with us. /sarcasm

There's a common MURKA! theme through all of this that is supported by nothing more than simple MURKANism. Obviously I have no problem holding a rifle for America, but I don't need blind patriotism to support that action. Apparently you find anything other than blind patriotism to be "pro-other-country". Russia's prior anti-Westernism was due to Bolshevism/Sovietism. Now it's at least half a reaction to the constant pressure exerted by the US. There's a bit of truth to Trump's CHYNA talk, which is that China more or less has played the US, or more particularly played Progressives. Now, obviously Progressives think it's the other way around because they believe in this "long arc of history" (which is really just "end of history" utopianism) nonsense.

Edit: Try listening to the experts (not myself, but I do try to listen to relevant ones):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_F._Cohen

Dr Cohen has compared Syria to Cuba btdubs.
https://audioboom.com/posts/5810260...phen-f-cohen-nyu-princeton-eastwestaccord-com

Edit#2: Notice that podcast is from the day after I already made the comparison.

quite frankly made it seem like the 21st century being a lite-cold war was not in the context the entire time, leaving a reasonable assumption to think there wasn't a cold war going on, in your estimation.

for one, how isn't it obvious one is for empire if one believes in global 'big brothers' ?

secondly, democracy has a correlation with less violence, so advocating for democracy can rely purely in economic and political motives. Which is then where external forces exerting democracy is good for the big brothers & internally, is good for the local populace.

You mean lower as in democratic countries don't fight each other. But what happens when there's not the "evil undemocratic regimes" to fight? Support for being the global police has always been couched in very non-imperial terms. "Safeguarding democracy". Wilson, a notable early political Progressive, championed the right to "national self-determination". One of the reasons for intervention against aggressor nations is the appeal to self-determination. However, when one gets past this glossy facade, the underlying realities of power - determination - is rather ugly.

when you frame it at this macro level, any proxy war is analogous to Syria today. One would only resort to an example of 1960s Cuba as a claim that we are setting up Syria as a location to inflict massive damage to the Russian state, which is what the Soviets did with Cuba.

Uh, yeah. That's why it's a great comparison.

This but also hospitals bleeding them dry for services. $15 cups of orange juice, we never see the bill. A thousand dollars to sleep in a bed for one night. Etc.

If we put regulations and limits on the amount of profit that can be made from medical goods and services then we would lower insurance costs across the board.

As HBB noted, price controls are the worst way to combat a problem that has been caused by government mandates and subsidies. Insert "You want to become Venezuela? Cause that's how you become Venezuala" meme. Start eliminating mandates and subsidies and make FDA trials a lot less rigorous for drugs while making it easier for patients to sue drug companies.
 
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But what happens when there's not the "evil undemocratic regimes" to fight?

I dunno, I qualified it as a requirement in this era of history. An interesting question that all shall ponder

One of the reasons for intervention against aggressor nations is the appeal to self-determination.

yes, and even when we've installed puppet democracies, the self-determination does not falter to our attempts to be a hands on empire. I think with each passing decade the powers that be realize that developing and being as far away as possible is economically idea for prior colonies

Apparently you find anything other than blind patriotism to be "pro-other-country". Russia's prior anti-Westernism was due to Bolshevism/Sovietism. Now it's at least half a reaction to the constant pressure exerted by the US.

very peculiar you see Russia as vastly different from it's collapse just over two decades ago. or that Russia only 'hates' U.S. now because of our involvement in x,y,z locations

There's a bit of truth to Trump's CHYNA talk, which is that China more or less has played the US

talking about the trade thing or the debt we owe China?

Uh, yeah. That's why it's a great comparison.

how is it comparable? we're setting up nuclear submarines and silos in Syria?


edit;

ill listen to this podcast but this seems really obscure to maybe relax a little :lol:
 
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very peculiar you see Russia as vastly different from it's collapse just over two decades ago. or that Russia only 'hates' U.S. now because of our involvement in x,y,z locations

Well to begin with, "Russia" doesn't hate the US. There are factions that do, and there are factions that are enraged about the the loss of status in the last thirty years, and factions that want to work with the US but the US won't cooperate. Regarding "vastly" different, I would say both the US and Russia are somewhat different at a minimum. Russia is still more authoritarian than many NATO countries, but not nearly like the Soviet Union.

talking about the trade thing or the debt we owe China?

Those are connected, and yes. Trade liberalization was supposed to be a trojan horse for getting democracy/western culture in. So far it looks like China has done a decent job of keeping what they want and shutting down what they don't.


how is it comparable? we're setting up nuclear submarines and silos in Syria?

ill listen to this podcast but this seems really obscure to maybe relax a little :lol:

Subject matter experts are often "obscure". But an Ivy League professors who has been a presidential advisor on Russia seems a relevant expert. It's a question of proximity and threat to national security. The US doesn't need to set up nuclear silos in Syria. But Russia does need that port, and Assad is the one that has allowed that relationship.
 
There are factions that do, and there are factions that are enraged about the the loss of status in the last thirty years, and factions that want to work with the US but the US won't cooperate.

And I would argue that the faction that has been in power since WW2 is anti-Western/U.S.

Those are connected, and yes. Trade liberalization was supposed to be a trojan horse for getting democracy/western culture in. So far it looks like China has done a decent job of keeping what they want and shutting down what they don't.

I recommend some more reading on China. The devotion and interest in a market capitalist system is going to cause massive problems and facilitate a massive social movement within 2 decades IMO. I wrote a research paper on this, especially inter-China migrant labor.

China just recently sided with the U.S. on North Korea, is that a first?

It's a question of proximity and threat to national security. The US doesn't need to set up nuclear silos in Syria. But Russia does need that port, and Assad is the one that has allowed that relationship.

Now you're twisting the example. Cuba was Cuba because of nuclear destruction. We have no interest in establishing even military bases in Syria as far as I know.

If you're real concern is proximity and threat to Russian national security, you're analogy should have been Poland/Baltic Sea states as they have begged for more and more U.S. military involvement and defense systems since the invasion of Ukraine.

Subject matter experts are often "obscure".

the podcast, not the speaker. I listened for ~20 minutes and lost interest as nothing provocative or noteworthy was being said. Trumpian level challenges of the information available surrounding the attack (that, interestingly enough, your boy Mattis said full heartedly in that youtube press conference that RUS was involved and Assad).

But the Cuba reference was legitimately a terrible point and how the narrator/host allowed that point to go unchecked was ridiculous. Paraphrasing/misquoting; "I think Syria today is more dangerous than Cuba in the 60s...because Syria is going to force the U.S. and RUS to treat Syria like Cuba" :lol: :lol: :lol: I don't know much about this dude and his resume is stellar, but i'm starting to think he's a political scientist and that's how shit like that gets said
 
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