Einherjar86
Active Member
There's a difference between literalism in things like (to use Christian references) "the universe/earth was created in six days" and "thou shalt not kill." The former is not prescriptive. Devoutness is in behaviors. Where one is on the earth has little bearing on devoutness.....unless there's a behavior prescribed involving being in a certain place (hence Zionism, the Hajj, etc).
Why should one take "Thou shalt not kill" literally, and not "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"?
My point is that someone who takes both of these literally might be considered devout, as would someone who takes only the former literally.
We can't make any statements about those specific Muslims in NZ. Neither you nor I know anything about them. But I will refer back to the Pew survey data and point out that in nearly every Muslim majority countries, there's a clear supermajority of preference for Sharia law. Inferring from this trend, we could expect that, like the NZ shooter, there's a breaking or tipping point once there is a majority. Your argument is that this is the "wests" fault because of imperialism. I've seen these arguments and they are tenuous to say the least.
Your argument is that the Christchurch shooting is Islam's fault because of immigration. I've seen these arguments and they are tenuous to say the least.
You are trying to use former Soviet bloc hinterland countries as examples of countries with evolved democratic and "functioning government apparatus"? I don't even know what your criteria for this is. Does Jordan have a functioning government apparatus? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Turkey isn't a great counter example either:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cular-turkey-sharia-is-gradually-taking-over/
The long western tradition I'm referring to is a secular legal code going back at least to, even if only symbolically, the Magna Carta. That this code has evolved is immaterial to the fact that it's a secular rather than a religious legal code, and that Sharia law is not compatible with this code, demonstrable by attempts by Muslims in various places to try and implement Sharia law alongside with (unofficially) or instead of the national secular legal code.
The secular legal code(s) you refer to were implemented alongside religious codes for centuries after the Magna Carta. That these two things were seen as compatible isn't a good sign for Christianity.
If secularism is the standard we're going by, we can look at the Ottoman Empire again, which instituted its own secular legal code alongside a sacred one. In many cases, the secular codes overlapped with Western secular codes.
land owning and tax paying?
I'd say that this is how liberalism allowed those in power to control what "man" meant. In other words, if you prohibit a group of people from owning land, then they're not men (humans).
Philosophical definitions of human have tended to focus on intrinsic qualities, e.g. that which has a soul, that which thinks rationally, that which uses language, etc. Owning land and paying taxes aren't intrinsic, although I believe that they've certainly been used to rationalize variations on humanism throughout history.
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