The Richard Dawkins...

I fail completely to see why that would be the case. This is, of course, mental masturbation as the assumption you're resting on is logically impossible (so either you trust logic, in which case YHWH is right out, or you don't, in which case you're going to have a hell of a time constructing a logical argument no matter how much evidence you have)... more importantly, though, as much 'fun' as it is to pretend that people like Dawkins are no better than their targets, even a quick glance at what the guy does is more than sufficient to see that this is someone who loves to be found wrong if he can learn and gain more from it.

Jeff
 
An interesting question i was discussing with some people at uni a few days back:

If evidence for the existence of god, and i mean god as in the Christian god, was discovered and it appeared to be in some way legitimate, do you think Richard Dawkins would be prepared to listen to it and accept it? Or would he react just like the creationists react to science (either "la la la la i can't hear you" or "it's wrong, fundamentally flawed and EVIL"?

Dawkins seems to me to be a bit of a fundamentalist, fuelled not just by the wish to bring truth to other people (sound familiar) but also by a deeper emotional problem with religion that is in no way based in the world of reason he loves so much.


Not to say he's not a great thinker in his own way ofc, and his books contain a lot of interesting information and arguments, but perhaps a few too many "reactionary potshots" as was mentioned earlier
i don't mean in any way for this to sound harsh.... but you very clearly have not read much Dawkins. if you have, i submit that you didn't retain much of it.

he would absolutely accept it, if the science was sound.

over an over again Dawkins uses this same hypothetic in the inverse: would Theists, who otherwise completely refute science as being in any way capable of proving or disproving god... and whom constantly make that negative assertion at every proposed theoretical/scientific proof against the existence of god... be as adamant and steadfast against accepting such proof on the basis of it being scientific in nature (and thus by their own assertion useless in the confirmation or dis-confirmation of god) if it in fact seemed to strengthen or confirm their position?

the answer is clear and historically proven; no, they would not in that case remain resolute against science, they would embrace it and wave it as a flag.. and have done so at every misunderstood or creatively interpreted theory or proof that they get their guilt-ridden little cock-beaters on.

Dawkins lives by science and science alone. he CAN be swayed by science, either way it runs.. and in fact admits that while he finds it highly improbable, that god might indeed exist (albeit about as probable as leprechauns being real), and that if irrefutable scientific proof were uncovered he would accept it. he would not and does not accept supernatural arguments for the existence of a creator and intelligent design. a single, resolute standard, and very admirable.

Creationists live by supernatural explanations, and will not accept scientific explanations concerning god, unless they seem to be, or can be twisted into, supporting their beliefs. a waffly double-standard, and quite smarmy.

so you are way off-base regarding Dawkins, and should really read him a bit more thoroughly if you want any chance at convincingly impugning his analyses. good luck.

i hope that answers your question, ;)
 
i don't mean in any way for this to sound harsh.... but you very clearly have not read much Dawkins. if you have, i submit that you didn't retain much of it.

he would absolutely accept it, if the science was sound.

over an over again Dawkins uses this same hypothetic in the inverse: would Theists, who otherwise completely refute science as being in any way capable of proving or disproving god... and whom constantly make that negative assertion at every proposed theoretical/scientific proof against the existence of god... be as adamant and steadfast against accepting such proof on the basis of it being scientific in nature (and thus by their own assertion useless in the confirmation or dis-confirmation of god) if it in fact seemed to strengthen or confirm their position?

the answer is clear and historically proven; no, they would not in that case remain resolute against science, they would embrace it and wave it as a flag.. and have done at every misunderstood or creatively interpreted theory or proof that they get their cock-beaters on.

Dawkins lives by science and science alone. he CAN be swayed by science, either way it runs.. and in fact admits that while he finds it highly improbable, that god might indeed exist (albeit about as probable as leprechauns being real), and that if irrefutable scientific proof were uncovered he would accept it. he would not and does not accept supernatural arguments for the existence of a creator and intelligent design. a single, resolute standard, and very admirable.

Creationists live by supernatural explanations, and will not accept scientific explanations concerning god, unless they seem to be, or can be twisted into, supporting their beliefs. a waffly double-standard, and quite smarmy.

so you are way off-base regarding Dawkins, and should really read him a bit more thoroughly if you want any chance at convincingly impugning his analyses. good luck.

i hope that answers your question, ;)

that is roughly the response i get from almost everyone i ask, so i guess i must be a bit off somewhere :p I must admit to not having read any of his books in full, only passages. I will educate myself and return!
 
Calling Dawkins a fundamentalist shows your lack of understanding and appreciation for the scientific method.

I have a reasonable understanding and appreciation of the scientific method as i am taking a physics degree. It is without a doubt the best way of building an understanding of the world around us leading to accurate predictions. I'm not questioning the scientific method, i was questioning whether Dawkins is entirely driven by the scientific method or whether there is some other more emotionally based reason for his seemingly intense dislike of religion.
However, as i stated above, I need to read more of his work in full before I can make a proper judgement
 
Once you do read more of his stuff (even a few interviews will probably be enough) you'll see why he's immune from such attacks. The validity of Christianity directly contradicts the most basic foundations of logical thinking, so if it is true then Dawkins will have much more to worry about than saving face - for one, he'll have to find a profession that doesn't depend on reasoning and require consistency.

Jeff
 
I'm not questioning the scientific method, i was questioning whether Dawkins is entirely driven by the scientific method or whether there is some other more emotionally based reason for his seemingly intense dislike of religion.
However, as i stated above, I need to read more of his work in full before I can make a proper judgement
yes, read more... you'll realize that the characterization you're placing on him has no basis at all. he doesn't seem to have any particularly intense dislike of religion in my opinion, merely the often sad consequences of it. certainly not an unreasoning hatred founded on any emotional or personal basis. he seems merely to disagree with creationism and it's super-natural underpinnings, which are the foundations of religious belief. to that extent he could be said to loathe it as one should loathe any untruth perpetrated so brazenly and unchecked on the world... especially one that has caused, and continues to cause, so much harm (wars, psychoses, discrimination, etc.). so, i think his distaste for religion is much more clinical and analytical than your estimation places it.

for a simple analogy: if you meet a stranger that insists to you that 2+2=5 and he sincerely believed it, would you hate him for it, even if you were a mathematician?... or would you merely think him a half-wit? you see?... it's not happening. you might engage yourself to explain to him, even vigorously, why he was wrong, and try to educate him... but you'd have to be a bit of sociopath to hate him simply for being wrong.

But, there could be plenty of reasons to feel more negatively toward him that may follow from such poor basic mathematics comprehension, reasons which could make such a person contempt-worthy (and evangelical X-tians often provide them when speaking of religion)... but not for the intelligence/comprehension deficit alone. an example of a reason to take a sharper opinion of such a person: finding out that he is teaching (indoctrinating) his children to believe in that same "creative" math. cause and causality.

there's no rational reason to believe that 2+2 would equal 5, and there's no rational reason to believe a magic man in the sky answers your prayers (and thus, by simple extrapolation, does not answer those of others), and that's what Dawkins is saying.

of course there's far stronger support for the argument that the religious delusion can be far more damaging to humanity than a maths skill deficit: holy wars, suicide bombings, abortion clinic doctor murders, children dying because their parents wont take them to hospital because it's against their beliefs, etc.

you see, the poor mathematician of my example will not likely make it into any profession that requires him to be able to perform basic addition/subtraction... he will be weeded out and passed over. society's safeguards against such basic incompetence will block his ability to ever find himself in a position to do any mass harm due to his numerical failings. so, he's not very dangerous in the end, other than perhaps to his children's school marks. No such safeguards exist to keep religious zealots from gaining positions from which they can wreak their own more insidious forms of misguided havoc, however. Rather, society and government are currently geared to enable these types of individuals and groups to gain positions from which their theological convictions can work their nasty "magic" (misogyny, racism, discrimination, homophobia, and much more).

and that's good enough reason to be cautious of organized, zealous, intrusive religion if you ask me. no special, hidden, secret reason need exist... merely reason itself.
 
yes, read more... you'll realize that the characterization you're placing on him has no basis at all. he doesn't seem to have any particularly intense dislike of religion in my opinion, merely the often sad consequences of it. certainly not an unreasoning hatred founded on any emotional or personal basis. he seems merely to disagree with creationism and it's super-natural underpinnings, which are the foundations of religious belief. to that extent he could be said to loathe it as one should loathe any untruth perpetrated so brazenly and unchecked on the world... especially one that has caused, and continues to cause, so much harm (wars, psychoses, discrimination, etc.). so, i think his distaste for religion is much more clinical and analytical than your estimation places it.

for a simple analogy: if you meet a stranger that insists to you that 2+2=5 and he sincerely believed it, would you hate him for it, even if you were a mathematician?... or would you merely think him a half-wit? you see?... it's not happening. you might engage yourself to explain to him, even vigorously, why he was wrong, and try to educate him... but you'd have to be a bit of sociopath to hate him simply for being wrong.

But, there could be plenty of reasons to feel more negatively toward him that may follow from such poor basic mathematics comprehension, reasons which could make such a person contempt-worthy (and evangelical X-tians often provide them when speaking of religion)... but not for the intelligence/comprehension deficit alone. an example of a reason to take a sharper opinion of such a person: finding out that he is teaching (indoctrinating) his children to believe in that same "creative" math. cause and causality.

there's no rational reason to believe that 2+2 would equal 5, and there's no rational reason to believe a magic man in the sky answers your prayers (and thus, by simple extrapolation, does not answer those of others), and that's what Dawkins is saying.

of course there's far stronger support for the argument that the religious delusion can be far more damaging to humanity than a maths skill deficit: holy wars, suicide bombings, abortion clinic doctor murders, children dying because their parents wont take them to hospital because it's against their beliefs, etc.

you see, the poor mathematician of my example will not likely make it into any profession that requires him to be able to perform basic addition/subtraction... he will be weeded out and passed over. society's safeguards against such basic incompetence will block his ability to ever find himself in a position to do any mass harm due to his numerical failings. so, he's not very dangerous in the end, other than perhaps to his children's school marks. No such safeguards exist to keep religious zealots from gaining positions from which they can wreak their own more insidious forms of misguided havoc, however. Rather, society and government are currently geared to enable these types of individuals and groups to gain positions from which their theological convictions can work their nasty "magic" (misogyny, racism, discrimination, homophobia, and much more).

and that's good enough reason to be cautious of organized, zealous, intrusive religion if you ask me. no special, hidden, secret reason need exist... merely reason itself.

I am humbled. :notworthy
 
AllSeeingEye.JPG




time to start asking questions