Theme and Variation in Metal

[MasterOLightning]

Can anyone think of any metal songs that adhere closely to this classical approach?

A partial definition from grovemusic.com :

A form founded on repetition...in which a discrete theme is repeated several or many times with various modifications. A theme for variations, rarely shorter than eight or longer than 32 bars, may be a melody, a bass line, a harmonic progression or a complex of such elements. Sets of variations may be freestanding, independent pieces, most often for solo keyboard but also for orchestra and chamber combinations, or they may be movements in a larger work...

Nothing obvious is coming to mind, or at least nothing that very strictly adheres to this idea. Burzum songs like Det Som En Gang Var and Tomhet seem to come close, but there are clear breaks from the original theme.

 

[hibernal_dream]

By my understanding of the definition you provided, it covers almost all metal. There is always a repeated theme (usually guitar or bass), and always variation in either vocals, drums, lead guitar or keyboards. At least, I can't see what distinguishes Det Som En Gang Var and Tomhet from the majority of metal songs. Unless you mean the Summoning style, where bits are added on top of the theme as it progresses. Could you give me an example of a classical piece which fits the definition?

 

[WNxScythe]

Wouldn't Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings fall under this? It's essentially the same melody but manipulated for the course of the entire piece.

I'm sure everyone hear has heard it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RRMz8fKkG2g

As for metal... hmm... I'd say Martyr sort of do that, see Warp Zone (the album)

 

[MasterOLightning]

I didn't explain myself well enough. Listen to this piece on Wikipedia.
http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/26504/Variations-28213.mid
It seems to get the point across better. The main melody remains largely recognizable throughout. Most metal songs have distinctly different riffs that can't really be called variations of the initial riff. The initial riff is often not the centerpiece of the song either.

 

[WNxScythe]

Yeah we're studying this in my music class right now... I understood, I just don't think metal usually follows that form strictly, though some of its ideas, yeah.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Your example was good. That's what I was getting at.

It does not seem common in metal, which at times aspires to imitate classical in some ways.

 

[unknown]

Giant Squid's song "Metridium Fields" (off of the album of the same name) has a section that repeats for 11 minutes, but every now and then little bits and pieces change. it's a massive song.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Ah! That reminds me, Isis does this frequently. Weight is just an expansion on the same six note melody over 11 minutes. Lots of Isis songs sort of work that way, with Weight being a more extreme example.

 

[unknown]

let's make it easy on ourselves and say the good majority of post-metal/post rock/whatever bands do this.

 

[hibernal_dream]

Okay, I understand - you're talking about variation between segments. It's a very interesting question. I think it's a matter of how the piece develops. I don't think the piece you posted is all that different from metal songwriting. In the piece you posted, the motifs retain the same or similar intervals and cadence progression and similar rhythmic patterns. I think the development in metal is based on stronger contrast between riffs, but retains either picking consistency (darkthrone and most black metal using fast picking etc), rhythmic variations and patterns (Gorguts especially on Erosion of Sanity). Retaining melodic themes throughout a song is rare, and I haven't heard it much in metal. One song I think does it is At The Gates - Red In The Sky is Ours. Notice how the first melody reappears in various different forms? In the 2nd riff the emphasis is thrown off onto another note, which is a very common technique in classical music. Actually I think that whole album is what you're looking for

 

[hibernal_dream]

Ah! That reminds me, Isis does this frequently. Weight is just an expansion on the same six note melody over 11 minutes. Lots of Isis songs sort of work that way, with Weight being a more extreme example.

Yes, but it's not the same technique as the piece you posted. It's just the same melody repeated, which the one you posted is definitely NOT.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Well, the variations are in guitar tone/volume/key and the addition and subtraction of vocals. But the melody remains constant, which happens seldomly in songs of that length. It's more than just repetition. The piece I found a link to is what I could get off of Wikipedia, and serves more as an example of what I meant, not a pure definition of it.

So the Isis song is a theme (the repeating melody) and variations (tone, etc.). The link had a looser theme (similar progressions) and then the variations on that. The compositional approach is similar. At least to the best of my understanding, that's what's going on.

I mainly made this thread because this stuff came up in my music class. I'm not that well versed in classical at all, so I figured other people might know better than I.

 

[challenge_everything]

There's plenty. A lot of Primordial's stuff comes to mind (check out 'The Coffin Ships' for one example).
'Reflection' by Tool.
'The Cry of Mankind' by My Dying Bride (love that song).
A lot of Cult of Luna stuff - check out 'Leash'.
Isis.

 

[Wires & Waves]

first two morbid angel albums are probably the closest youll get

 

[Dazed and Brutal]

first two morbid angel albums are probably the closest youll get

.

Demigod and Demilich have many repeating themes. And many black metal bands as well.

 

[panzerfaust666]

i believe alot of shred has this as well.for instance the song crying by joe satriani has the main theme repeating, slightly changed each time adn played in a different octave. then the solo of course andmaybe anothetr variation on the main theme.alot of the shred stuff has this same structure. as for metal, i would also have to say first two Morbid Angel releases.

are you maybe talkiung about lead lines as well? as in the bodom song bed Of Razors? ( not very good band but good example.)

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Morbid Angel? My Dying Bride? I think some people aren't quite fathoming what this technique is. The closest that comes to mind is Summoning's "The Legend Of The Master-Ring" but even that doesn't much deviate from the standard structures used in most popular music. I don't know if you'd find a pure example of this technique in metal.

Aside: If you ever want metal that follows the string quartet structure, you could check out Christ Agony's Unholyunion. It even has a recapitulation if I recall correctly.

 

[challenge_everything]

I didn't mean My Dying Bride in general, just that one song.

 

[Alter]

Jesu, but not really metal.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I didn't mean My Dying Bride in general, just that one song.

Right, but that song just has the single melody that repeats throughout. It doesn't qualify for the "variation" part of "theme and variation."