to side-chain of not to side-chian....

[Arsenu,]

hey guys!

so everybody knows the old SC trick where you compress the bass guitar to the BD so the BD won't lose energy when the bass guitar is playing, right?

so i'm mixing this project where the bass guitar and BD play simultaniously almost all the time if not ALL the time and i got to thinking:
if i'll SC the bass guitar the old fashion way it'll just be compressed ALL the time, so what's the point? i might as well just compress it more than usual and that's it....

but of course than i will be...well....over compressed...
so it's obvious when both bass and BD are palying together something's got to give, but how do you keep both of them clear without killing the BD?

one thought that crossed my mind is inserting a multi-band compressor on the bass guitar and boosting a certain frequency while cutting it on the BD and vice versa....

what do you think? how do you deal with those situations?

 

[BLUElightCory]

My advice - try cutting up the bass track and nudging it so it hits just behind the kick.

 

[TheDriller]

Well, the point of sidechaining the kick to the bass guitar is so that when the kick hits,
the Bass guitar is pushed out of the way for a split second, and then returns to normal until the next kick hit.

If you set the compressors release time just right it should barely be audible, but will be making it a lot easier for the kick and bass to co-exist in the mix without one drowning the other out. It should really just be compressed long enough for the kick transient to pop through, and no longer.

 

[Arsenu,]

My advice - try cutting up the bass track and nudging it so it hits just behind the kick.

hmm but won't it make the track sound less tight?

 

[Arsenu,]

Well, the point of sidechaining the kick to the bass guitar is so that when the kick hits,
the Bass guitar is pushed out of the way for a split second, and then returns to normal until the next kick hit.

If you set the compressors release time just right it should barely be audible, but will be making it a lot easier for the kick and bass to co-exist in the mix without one drowning the other out. It should really just be compressed long enough for the kick transient to pop through, and no longer.

i don't know how effective it'll be when dealing with 160 BPM 1/16 notes...
might give me a BIT extra punch but i'm trying the get the whole kick sound audiable while sustaining a nice punchy bass line.

after all, a good BD and bass sound is like 90% of a mix...

 

[barricade]

You can adjust with the release and attack button how fast you want to bring the bass quieter and louder !

 

[wishtheend]

Also look at the multi-band compressors that have side-chain. That way you can just duck only the area that gets clouded without reducing the volume of the track as a whole.

 

[BLUElightCory]

hmm but won't it make the track sound less tight?

No sir. You make the bass hit JUST enough behind the kick to allow the kick transient to come through, and then the bass hits. It still sounds like they're hitting together, but the bass doesn't cover the attack of the kick.

 

[AEL89]

No sir. You make the bass hit JUST enough behind the kick to allow the kick transient to come through, and then the bass hits. It still sounds like they're hitting together, but the bass doesn't cover the attack of the kick.

This is what I'm doing instead of side-chaining now. I think a lot of people get too caught up by the grid - it helps a lot to trust your ears rather than what you're seeing.

 

[Arsenu,]

hmmmmm interesting ideas, i'll try them out.

thanks guys!

BTW anyone knows from experience which frequencies are usually the ones that gets clouded before i start busting my head on this?
my guess is it'll be boost around 800hz BD, cut around 100-300 and vice versa on bass. i like the BD pretty high out there....

 

[JeffTD]

This doesn't work on metal stuff with faster, constant kicks, but IMO is almost a must on more rock/pop/alternative stuff.

I sidechain both kick and snare to my bass and rhythm guitar tracks busses, reaaaally helps keeping things clear and adds a nice musical bit of pumping if you set the GR on the compressor right.

 

[El_Gato]

This doesn't work on metal stuff with faster, constant kicks, but IMO is almost a must on more rock/pop/alternative stuff.

I sidechain both kick and snare to my bass and rhythm guitar tracks busses, reaaaally helps keeping things clear and adds a nice musical bit of pumping if you set the GR on the compressor right.

Good one. W or w/o cutting on some freq? I always cut first before SC.

 

[AudioGeekZine]

Don't think I've ever felt the need to use this technique. I have known of it for years.

 

[RedDog]

This doesn't work on metal stuff with faster, constant kicks, but IMO is almost a must on more rock/pop/alternative stuff.

I sidechain both kick and snare to my bass and rhythm guitar tracks busses, reaaaally helps keeping things clear and adds a nice musical bit of pumping if you set the GR on the compressor right.

+1 I thought I was the only one to throw a sidechain on guitars as much as bass.

I like to get really creative with it, automating in a deeper pump during dramatic double bass, up to 6-10 db of GR in some places.

 

[espartaco]

This doesn't work on metal stuff with faster, constant kicks, but IMO is almost a must on more rock/pop/alternative stuff.

I sidechain both kick and snare to my bass and rhythm guitar tracks busses, reaaaally helps keeping things clear and adds a nice musical bit of pumping if you set the GR on the compressor right.

can you elaborate a little more about this? do you sidechain kick and snare to duck the rhythm guitars and bass right? or is the other way around?

 

[MetalSound]

Don't think I've ever felt the need to use this technique. I have known of it for years.

+1

 

[AudioGeekZine]

can you elaborate a little more about this? do you sidechain kick and snare to duck the rhythm guitars and bass right? or is the other way around?

bass guitar compressor is keyed from the kick drum. When the kick hits, the bass gets compressed (turned down) and it helps the two sit better in the mix because the bass will never overpower the kick.

This tends to get used as a way to use less compression (less common) and less time spent automating. If the bass is played (or pocketed) in time and is fairly consistent (or heavily compressed) it's kinda pointless to set up.

I will send kick and bass and toms to a bus, eq all highs out, compress hard and blend in parallel for a denser low-end. Not always.

 

[Ermz]

Never used it in my life.

Just got used to it since early versions of Cubase had no side-chaining. Admittedly I have felt like doing it with the new C6 multiband, but for some reason I tend to prefer simply frequency balancing them in a way where they can co-exist peacefully. With the way I work with rock stuff, I tend to get the kick to pump the bass and everything else down, so it almost feels like an unnecessary procedure. Can hear it here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/Memnoir - The One.mp3

 

[Soundlurker]

Side-chaining rules! It makes it possible to bring two contradicting elements of the mix to the front with minimum effort. Or you can get rid of stuff you don't want in a track.

Ever since I tried it I can't go back. In recent projects I'd route kick, snare, bass,rhythm guitar, vocals, snare reverb into various instances of side-chain compression and gate.
Just keep the release time low enough and preferably use pre-fader sends for convenience's sake.



In the op's case I'd bring the release down (say 10ms), 4:1, no more than 4-5db reduction.

 

[JeffTD]

Good one. W or w/o cutting on some freq? I always cut first before SC.

Haven't bothered cutting frequencies, and it's really just 2-3 db at any time.

can you elaborate a little more about this? do you sidechain kick and snare to duck the rhythm guitars and bass right? or is the other way around?

Just put a transparent comp on the bass and gtr busses and then use the kick/snare to key the comp and duck about 2-3db with every hit. Been doing it with tom hits a bit more lightly, 1-2db, liking that result as well.


Ermin, the end result of sidechaining a comp is quite different than pumping the master bus with the kick, if that's what you're referring to. Give it a shot with the stock Cubase compressor sometime.