Unpleasant and Controversial

[Nightwing]

Although I can certainly respect an ability to argue one's point in a civilized manner, I do have a problem with dewey - eyed patriotism.......it is quite clear that as much as some of us on the left exaggerate the negative aspects of US foreign policy at times, others, such as my friend Wandrail here, choose to completely and utterly ignore any negatives at all.
One would need to be an eternal optimist to call Iraq pre-war a 'mess' and what is happening now 'hopeful'.

And I would like to stress Bush did say "God told me to invade Iraq" - this is not a phrase of a man that is sound enough of mind to run the world's most powerful country - and it is evasive to simply label me anti-Christian because I make that point.

Christianity is indeed, guilty of as many atrocities through history as any of the dictators that right wing nutters scream about taking down.......

 

[Wandrail]

So then, it's just a coincidence that Cheney et al chose a quote specifically regarding imperialism? They could've just as easily chosen a quote about the pretty stars in the sky?

Well, if the word nation was used instead of empire then you wouldn't have a problem - and considering Ben Franklin wasn't an imperialist his point in making the quote was obviously not a reference to any imperialist aspirations. Empire is not a dirty word to people in the field of government and history when you're speaking rhetorically - it calls to mind visions of Rome, Persia, and Babylon - great societies that, especially for their time seemed to wield unimaginable power and possess unimiaginable sciences, and advanced technologies. Franklin is saying there is purpose behind everything, that if God plays a hand in the death of a small bird, then its foolish to think Rome rose to control the known world for good or ill without God's knowledge or hand. This translates on any national level as well, to any dealings - to jump at this christmas card as some sort of evidence is peculiar and seemse like alarmism to me...kind of like Bush the 41st saying New World Order.

 

[Wandrail]

Although I can certainly respect an ability to argue one's point in a civilized manner, I do have a problem with dewey - eyed patriotism.......it is quite clear that as much as some of us on the left exaggerate the negative aspects of US foreign policy at times, others, such as my friend Wandrail here, choose to completely and utterly ignore any negatives at all.
One would need to be an eternal optimist to call Iraq pre-war a 'mess' and what is happening now 'hopeful'.

Man, I do not ignore negatives, I just might not see some of the same things you do as negatively. War to me is not the ultimate scourge of the planet - i'd rather be at war than living under someone's heel. My country was born out of bloodshed, and some of my ancestors were American revolutionaries and fought and died in horrible nasty warfare to beat the Brits,a nd I thank them for it - and some of my ancestors came over in the 1800's from Ireland after nearly starving to death under Britains oh-so benevolent thumb. I think warfare, while never something to be overly cavalier about, depending on how you wage it, can be just and for the better. Some people's alarm goes off the second they hear the word 'military', and they go into a frenzy. I am very aware however of things that are seriously wrong with my country, they may not be the same things you think are wrong with my country, but that's called a difference of opinion - much like how I would have to be an eternal optimist to call a people's situation hopeful after a fascist regime has been eliminated. The point is that yes, I am a patriot for my part, because I believe in the overarching purpose of my nation despite any mistakes - if that is passe or not high-minded thinking enough, then so be it, but I am not walking around whistling dixie while the sky is falling, I'm aware of all of this. All I can say is time will bear one of us out to be right, that is all.

And I would like to stress Bush did say "God told me to invade Iraq" - this is not a phrase of a man that is sound enough of mind to run the world's most powerful country - and it is evasive to simply label me anti-Christian because I make that point.

Christianity is indeed, guilty of as many atrocities through history as any of the dictators that right wing nutters scream about taking down.......

Bush has certainly said he prayed about the decision to go to war, and that he felt, as any Christian would hope to, that he was making the decision God would have him make. That is not talking like a madman, but I suppose to someone who decides that the religion itself is faulty then you would view it that way. Its not evasive to point out that your reaction to someone having a 'fundamentalist christian' mindset is based on misgivings about what that is due to a pre-conceived, most likely third person view of it. Again, there seems to be sympathy and compassion for those whose extreme interpretation of their ideology lends itself to suicide bombings, but little for those that have given rise to modern civilization and some of the greatest societies in our world (i.e. Judaic/Christian principles and law). Christianity is not guilty of atrocities any more than Islam is, or any religion - some supposed christians yes, but not as a result of any christian teachings. I'm again totally aware of the history of the Catholic church during last millenium, the inquisition, the templar knights, the cathars, etc etc. There is nothing in Christianity that provided a basis for any of this, which is precisely why the Church in that day forbid anyone to read the bible. Its also why Luther was so important, because really the Church became a government system that ruled with an iron fist, and used people's belief in Christianity to control them. However if we go back into the more ancient world, it becomes impossible to compare goings-on of that chaotic time with those of our diplomatic era. Everyone was fighting everyone back in those days and usually for no better reason than the ability to do so. To make the assumption that Bush, in saying he felt guided by God in his actions, is a madman is to make the assumption that Christianity itself is madness. If that is your view, that's fine, but its a just a view, not a fact, and its as colored by personal beliefs as mine.

 

[lord667]

I think many people's opinions on the subject are rooted in fairly illogical reasoning, even romanticism...the Israeli Army and their Yankee imperialist cronies vs the unorganised but gutsy Palestinian martyrs. Both sides have bloody hands, but people see the Israelis rolling in tanks and it makes them think of "aggression" and "occupation". The suicide bombers, to exaggerate somewhat, are seen in some quarters as plucky little underdogs laying down their lives for their cause. On an abstract level it smells of the Charge of the Light Brigade, the Battle of Helm's Deep, the rebel assault on the Death Star; brave heroes fighting overwhelming odds. It's undeniably absurd, but that's one of the, ah, "vibes" I pick up from watching people debate the subject.

I want to see Israel continue to exist, and I think as long as America remains powerful, it will. Never mind the Zionism; Israel is the only dependable Western ally in the region, with the Saudis under growing internal pressure and The New Iraq still unformed. Stopping the Israeli offensives is relatively easy; they have a more solid command structure. Give the order and the tanks stop rolling. The Palestinian suicide bombers, however, can do it on their own if they want to; suppose the PLO decides tomorrow - fuck it, we're going straight. You may well see the same thing that happened to the IRA - those hardcore members who won't settle for a peaceful compromise just start their own group, "The Real PLO", and continue with business as usual.

 

[Wandrail]

I think many people's opinions on the subject are rooted in fairly illogical reasoning, even romanticism...the Israeli Army and their Yankee imperialist cronies vs the unorganised but gutsy Palestinian martyrs. Both sides have bloody hands, but people see the Israelis rolling in tanks and it makes them think of "aggression" and "occupation". The suicide bombers, to exaggerate somewhat, are seen in some quarters as plucky little underdogs laying down their lives for their cause. On an abstract level it smells of the Charge of the Light Brigade, the Battle of Helm's Deep, the rebel assault on the Death Star; brave heroes fighting overwhelming odds. It's undeniably absurd, but that's one of the, ah, "vibes" I pick up from watching people debate the subject.

I agree totally, and the thing is that maybe I could at least have a military respect for them if they actually bothered to try and take out military targets, not buses and restaurants. But they're cowards and butchers rather than soldiers.

I want to see Israel continue to exist, and I think as long as America remains powerful, it will. Never mind the Zionism; Israel is the only dependable Western ally in the region, with the Saudis under growing internal pressure and The New Iraq still unformed. Stopping the Israeli offensives is relatively easy; they have a more solid command structure. Give the order and the tanks stop rolling. The Palestinian suicide bombers, however, can do it on their own if they want to; suppose the PLO decides tomorrow - fuck it, we're going straight. You may well see the same thing that happened to the IRA - those hardcore members who won't settle for a peaceful compromise just start their own group, "The Real PLO", and continue with business as usual.

A few weeks ago Hamas was talking about pulling all these operations out of jerusalem and whatnot and then like clockwork this happens. I think that anytime they start sounding reasonable from now on, everyone should buckle down twice as hard because it seems like that's always when something nasty happens. How can you really even try to pursue diplomacy with organizations that have that kind of record? When someone's word means nothing what options have you got left? Even if Arafat signed a deal tomorrow and issued an edict for compromise and cooperation - what would that mean to the terrorists? Nothing. The 'Real IRA' is a very suitable comparison, and I find it funny as a side note that most of these groups that bear the IRA namesake and blow up cars in belfast are actually marxist groups, rather than the democratic republicans of the Irish revolutionaries of 1798 and 1916, whose ideas were basically in line with those of the American revolutionaries. Which is why I am happy that for the next 6 months Ireland and Fianna Fail have the EU presidency - although I am really curious about what that actually means. Is that just sort of a figerehead role, or does it really allow for the office holding nation to exercise some sort of power?

 

[Corporal McDick]

Wandrail, I absolutely agree with what you say here.
I suppose that there isnt anyone more intersted in the existance of Israel than me.
And I agree that both sides should stop this shit but: Every time we give a hand in a peace suggestion, its just not enough for them PLO ppl.... and the reason was mentioned by lord667 - they are not an organized structure. So they cant stop unless they ALL want to. And you know the EVERYBODY absolutely will never to full agreement.

NP: Salem - Act Of War

 

[lord667]

Which is why I am happy that for the next 6 months Ireland and Fianna Fail have the EU presidency - although I am really curious about what that actually means. Is that just sort of a figerehead role, or does it really allow for the office holding nation to exercise some sort of power?

According to one list, the EU President's roles are to "Manage the co-operation between the EU Member States in the EU Council, represent the EU Council in relation to the other EU institutions and organs (especially the European Parliament and the Commission), and act on behalf of the EU in international organisations and in relations with countries outside the EU." Basically, the President's role is as chairman of the EU Council and of sundry ministerial meetings, as the Council's representative in Parliament, and as European ambassador and emissary on the world stage. He doesn't have a great deal of executive authority, and he's not likely to get any, because there are more and more people in Europe who think the EU is getting too close to being a federal superstate.

 

[Nightwing]

Well Wandrail......I certainly feel that you have twisted my words somewhat - I do not see ALL christianity as madness, nor all Islam, nor all anything else.

However, I do see the evangalistical type of Christianity that Bush practices as a problem for someone in his position, certainly - particularly when he has a less than enviable record with drink and drugs.

I personally do not believe one can simply 'wash himself clean' and say 'I am now reborn'.....pardon the expression, but that is a crock of shit.
And in what I believe is the true spirit of Christianity, one cannot justify attacking a basically defenseless nation on a faulty pretext.......and they knew my friend - Rice and Powell are quoted in 2001 as saying Iraq was basically disarmed, and no longer a threat to even it's neighbours.......you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear - there is nothing noble about what Bush did to the country of Iraq - cluster bombs, depleted uranium, some 6000 dead civilians, tens of thousands of injured and maimed civilians......now keeping the Iraqis under a different sort of brutal regime..........if this is your definition of what it takes to be Christian, you can count me out!

Interesting to hear you say you would rather have war than be under someone's boot heel - whose boot heel do you think you're under?
Hussein was never going to put you under a boot heel - but the absurdly named 'patriot act' might.......and your government has you very scared....the first measure of control over a population is fear.

Instead of arguing semantics, you really need to open your eyes my friend. Soon. A storm is gathering around Bush and his neo-con, war-mongering fanatics......for the sake of the world, we could all pray that he is gone this time next year.

 

[Wandrail]

Well Wandrail......I certainly feel that you have twisted my words somewhat - I do not see ALL christianity as madness, nor all Islam, nor all anything else.

However, I do see the evangalistical type of Christianity that Bush practices as a problem for someone in his position, certainly - particularly when he has a less than enviable record with drink and drugs.

See, again, you really don't understand Christianity...and I started writing a sort of rebuttal along those lines but I erased it because that really just becomes another long topic and I am in the minority here in my affiliation with that, and I don't feel like getting into that sort of discussion with all kinds of people. Really, the war in Iraq probably caused the fewest direct civilian deaths of any conflict of its type, which is something to applaud in my eyes. We have a military that makes every attempt to take care with how it treats the people around it, who may get caught in the crossfire, and I doubt you know many US military men, but I know quite a few and I can attest at least to their outlook - they'll kill their armed enemy in a minute, but they hate to see innocent people suffer. Hell, the majority of Iraq's army just gave up - they really really didn't want us to come in and take out Hussein...right. And as far as your rather irrational view on 'evil' weaponry - we learned in Vietnam what happens when you 'play fair' and neuter your superior force because you're a moron of a leader like LBJ - more soldiers die, the conflict drags on, more civilians die, soldiers get demoralized and question everything they came to fight for - that didn't happen this time. This time, the US and UK kicked Baathist tail, and I think the US military needs a damn raise.

if this is your definition of what it takes to be Christian, you can count me out!

Talk about twisting words...:Smug: but I digress.

Interesting to hear you say you would rather have war than be under someone's boot heel - whose boot heel do you think you're under?
Hussein was never going to put you under a boot heel - but the absurdly named 'patriot act' might.......and your government has you very scared....the first measure of control over a population is fear.

The real heel that looms over my head is that of the left wing that thinks our system and way of life is impeding what it sees asa new and better political system. It seeks to undermine our constitution through the judicial system and likeminded activist judges therein. I don't live 'in fear' - I can very easily and legally load this shotgun and blow the brains out of anyone who would seek to violate my inalienable right to life (and that includes the government), as can anyone in this country - and while we have that right, we have no need to fear. Its the willing servants in nations who rely on their benevolent controlling government officials who should be afraid. Bush isn't seeking to violate my rights - its the other side that's looking for more of my property to seize, to take my right to defend myself away, ridicule me for my believing in something other than humanist society, and try and change what it is this country was founded upon - to force me into some subservient clockwork society that they're convinced is utopia, where only the government is able to live above the means of the people who are forced into 'equality' - an equally low standard of life all can attain but none can exceed.

Instead of arguing semantics, you really need to open your eyes my friend. Soon. A storm is gathering around Bush and his neo-con, war-mongering fanatics......for the sake of the world, we could all pray that he is gone this time next year.

Well, man, I respect that you have a well-formed opinion you're passionate about, but my eyes have been open for a long time, and I somehow am not seeing the same thing you are whatsoever. As I said, time will bear one of us out right.

 

[Nightwing]

Yeah.....people who don't want war in this world are a real problem aren't they?

I have to respectfully refrain from any further discussion because I will need to consult a psychiatrist if I do - needless to say your pretensions of 'understanding' Christianity have left me cold. You seem incapable of understanding that Christianity is many things to many people - I mean I'm sure even Bush thinks he is a good person whilst he undertakes bombing innocents in the name of peace.......

Good luck in the future.

 

[Wandrail]

Good luck to you as well, condescending attitude aside.

 

[Profanity]

I'd like to wish you good luck as well.

 

[Nightwing]

Amazing that you think the left is trying to undermine the constitution of your country when parts of the patriot act you no doubt support have just been deemed unconstitutional.......I don't think I have ever seen an obviously intelligent person be any more wrong in almost every outlook they have.........people like this scare the hell out of me, and I fear that despite everything that Bush has done, how very much more unsafe we all are thanks to his war, the huge mess he has created, he still, unbelievably, has a chance to be re-elected.

I just cannot believe anyone who is relatively intelligent and relatively sane could still entertain the thought of 4 more years of neo-con madness. We are doing all we can down here to get rid of his little puppet Howard I can assure you.