US touring halted?

[Justin G]

How many people no longer follow DragonForce, Opeth, etc, once they achieved greater success?
Its not like their music has gotten any worse or anything.

In Opeth's case that's debatable. Then again, I never noticed anyone who was a fan before deciding not to be because they started getting mainstream notice.

That was the case with bands like In Flames and Lacuna Coil, but it came after both bands made a sharp and deliberate change in styles to grab a wider audience.

 

[General Zod]

How many people no longer follow DragonForce, Opeth, etc, once they achieved greater success? Its not like their music has gotten any worse or anything.

Have you listened to Opeth recently? They're a completely different band (musically). Is anyone going to confuse My Arms, Your Hearse with Ghost Reveries? Even with that said, I don't dislike Opeth's new material because it's a complete departure... I dislike Opeth's new material because Opeth began writing really... Really... REALLY bad songs.

Sure, sometimes the loss of appeal has to do in the decline of the quality of the music (IE - In Flames, etc), but heck, GHOST is already no longer discussed in most underground circuits anymore, and that took less than 12 months!

How much should Ghost be discussed? For one, in the context of this forum, they'd be a wildcard band. Second, they only have one album, which was released two years ago. Finally, they kind of suck.

I think this idea that Metal fans lose interest in a band once that band starts selling more albums, is something of a chicken and an egg kind of thing. My question would be, why did they start selling more albums? Did they start selling more albums simply because they got additional exposure? Or did they start selling more albums because they altered their sound? And if it's the latter, which it often is, than it's not the fan's fault for not liking the band, any more than it's the band's fault for wanting to go in another direction musically.

 

[Rezz]

Once a band breaks out big, something is lost.

The only thing that bothers me about my favorite bands making it big is losing the ability to see them in an intimate setting. I'm not a fan of seeing bands in arenas anymore. I hate having to pay more attention to the assholes around me shoving and lunging than I do to the band. I loved being able to see Gamma Ray in a small club, standing close enough to the stage to fist-bump Kai and not getting slammed into the rail.

 

[Harvester]

Finally, they kind of suck.

 

[Jasonic]

First off, GHOST was just an example. Certainly one I didn't expect would appeal to most here.
Though let's be realistic here people.
If their debut US performance was at PP as the oddball, I think many here would feel differently.
That's not the point, but feel free to debate this if you wish.

Rezz here get's the point I am making.
No longer getting to see them in a venue which holds 500 or less is a complaint we have all heard many times.

There is that element of "coolness" which is lost when seeing a band at a theater which holds 2000 as opposed to a club that holds 500. Doesn't seem as special.

We certainly ALL agree that if the music takes a completely different direction, esp for the worse as opposed to simply being different (IE - In Flames as opposed to Opeth), then older fans will be lost.

 

[Harvester]

If their debut US performance was at PP as the oddball, I think many here would feel differently.

Do you realize just how big of a prick you come off as every time you beat that horse?

 

[Jasonic]

In Opeth's case that's debatable. Then again, I never noticed anyone who was a fan before deciding not to be because they started getting mainstream notice.

*raiseshand*

For me, it was the type of shows and tours that made me no longer follow them. I think the last time I saw them was when they were touring for Damnation.

Right after that they did the theater tour with Porcupine Tree, then I think Sounds of the Underground, Gigantour, etc, etc.

The last disc of theirs I got was Ghost Reveries (which I did really like BTW, actually moreso than Deliverance). Though in a weird way, I guess since it seemed that I would probably never go see them live anymore, I stopped following them.

 

[Jasonic]

Do you realize just how big of a prick you come off as every time you beat that horse?

:Smug: Really???
I am not free to make that observation?
I am certainly not going to go through every example, as we have "beaten that dead horse" as you say..... but obviously as a promoter you know that you have booked bands that many here have showed distaste for when recommended by others, but then after seeing them walked away as fans.

It is actually a compliment to you, though you never seem to want to take it that way.....

 

[nomisofsiman]

That's not merely anecdotal, it's absurd. Someone who thinks all Metal sounds the same, doesn't understand anything about Metal, and likely understands little about music. To suggest Nightwish sounds the same as Blood Red Throne, that Circus Maximus sounds like Megadeth, or that Dimmu Borgir sounds like Iron Maiden, is patently absurd.

Couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately this is very true. It's like a lot of people will say they like everything but metal. However, typically those people think metal only is lound crunchy guitars and gutteral vocals nowadays. It's unfortunate. What I have always found headscratching though is that when Maiden and Priest come through, they get huge crowds. Yet, they aren't that different, especially Maiden to a lot of power metal bands. If even a sampling of people knew as much about power metal than we do, I think there would be more attendance and cd sales. Unfortunately, like I said earlier most don't venture out for new music and some will only listen to those said bands from the 80s.

 

[nomisofsiman]

Sorry - I still truly feel that if EVERGREY or KAMELOT (Just two examples of bands who are extremely liked in this circle) acheieved mainstream success a large majority would find a reason to no longer like these bands............

How many people no longer follow DragonForce, Opeth, etc, once they achieved greater success?
Its not like their music has gotten any worse or anything.

I think people forget that a large part of what has ALWAYS made heavy metal so great is the feeling that you are part of a smaller sub culture of music fans who are in the know of something amazing. Once a band breaks out big, something is lost.
Sure, sometimes the loss of appeal has to do in the decline of the quality of the music (IE - In Flames, etc), but heck, GHOST is already no longer discussed in most underground circuits anymore, and that took less than 12 months!

I have never been to concerned as to "why" the bands I love aren't tearing up the charts, when what is tearing up the charts or the $$$$ earned on tours is 99% crapola (To me anyways).

I also think this is what is hurting many start up festivals as well.
There is nothing wrong with being a band or festival that draws no more than 200 or 300.
As long as you are smart with your promotions and expenses, you can make it happen.
If extreme profit and prosperous living is what you are after, then playing metal is not the smart way to go.

This is the reason why MANY metal musicians do non-metal or tribute bands on the side.

There are some like this, but I don't think everyone is like this Jason. I also don't think it's merely being that popular. Usually when bands expand their fanbase they do it by sacrificing the music. That's why people stop following.

Your argument for Ghost is baseless though. They aren't really touring at the moment. They're doing a new album. Once they finish the album and it is put out, I bet people will start talking about them again (as long as it's good).

 

[Jasonic]

Simon. It's very simple........
Over 50% of the crowd at a Maiden show go there for the same reason as anyone who would go see Def Leppard or Poison.
Its nostalgia. The CD sales figures VS the ticket sales for Maiden certainly support that all these concert goers are NOT purchasing their new discs.

What would help is if Maiden brought a Nightwish, etc, on the road with them.

I would certainly think with all the festivals they have played, they are certainly more than well aware of the existence of the power metal scene and its popularity worldwide. Granted they may not ALWAYS have a hand in selecting the openers (Though my guess is they did when Lauren Harris opened)

 

[Diabolik]

Do you realize just how big of a prick you come off as every time you beat that horse?

you should see him on my forum....I called him a prick today actually.

 

[Jasonic]

Your argument for Ghost is baseless though. They aren't really touring at the moment. They're doing a new album. Once they finish the album and it is put out, I bet people will start talking about them again (as long as it's good).

Yes, but one tour opening for Metallica or a slot on Gigantour, and I guarantee they will lost the PBR in a can drinking crowd.

There was certainly more excitement about their (canceled) tour with Enslaved and their headlining tour then when they toured with Opeth. Maybe it was too much too soon, or maybe we are simply talking about a band that is too much of a novelty to begin with.

Either way, regardless of what you might think, Metallica's praises as well as the praises of the comedians (and I say this loosely) on That Metal Show, has made them less hip to the dark rimmed glasses crowd.

For the record, I love their album and look forward to the next one.

 

[Jasonic]

you should see him on my forum....I called him a prick today actually.

Yes, because you promote OTHER festivals more than the one you claim you "don't" work for........ dummy.........

 

[PureXul]

but obviously as a promoter you know that you have booked bands that many here have showed distaste for when recommended by others, but then after seeing them walked away as fans.

I think that's also a case of sampling bias in some ways, for two reasons:
1) The forum is a subset of the people who attend PPUSA, specifically a subset that is more enthusiastic about the festival as a whole. I don't know what percentage of the PPUSA audience posts here, but I would venture to guess it's no more than 40%, and the truly active posters probably number 10%. I'd actually be curious to know this if Glenn has those sort of stats handy, but either way, it's clearly a subset.
2) When there's a thread about how much of a great surprise Band X was, a lot of people are going to just skip right past it, rather than say "Band X sucked."

Personally, I don't really care why or how people find out that certain bands outside of the PPUSA core genres make good music. If Glenn booking Primordial brings them more fans, that's wonderful...am I really supposed to care that I've been a fan for longer than other people and found out about them sooner?

 

[General Zod]

First off, GHOST was just an example. Certainly one I didn't expect would appeal to most here.

Understood. I'm just not sure it's an example of anything accurate. Perhaps another example would better underscore the point?

No longer getting to see them in a venue which holds 500 or less is a complaint we have all heard many times.

A more intimate venue is always preferable. But I've never begrudged a band a bigger following. Conversely, every time I go see Nevermore I'm rooting for a huge turn out.

There is that element of "coolness" which is lost when seeing a band at a theater which holds 2000 as opposed to a club that holds 500. Doesn't seem as special.

I think it depends who those additional 1,500 people are. If they're similar to the first 500, that's cool. If they're the type of folks who think you should mosh at a Symphony X show, than yeah, I kind of want to set those people on fire.

We certainly ALL agree that if the music takes a completely different direction, esp for the worse as opposed to simply being different (IE - In Flames as opposed to Opeth), then older fans will be lost.

Since when the mad love for Opeth's newer material?

 

[Diabolik]

Yes, but one tour opening for Metallica or a slot on Gigantour, and I guarantee they will lost the PBR in a can drinking crowd.

There was certainly more excitement about their (canceled) tour with Enslaved and their headlining tour then when they toured with Opeth. Maybe it was too much too soon, or maybe we are simply talking about a band that is too much of a novelty to begin with.

Either way, regardless of what you might think, Metallica's praises as well as the praises of the comedians (and I say this loosely) on That Metal Show, has made them less hip to the dark rimmed glasses crowd.

For the record, I love their album and look forward to the next one.

I saw Ghost open for Opeth....the crowd went apeshit for them and it was packed in there for them. No PBR hipster types either.

 

[Harvester]

:

It is actually a compliment to you, though you never seem to want to take it that way.....

Feel free to point out where I said you were not allowed to speak your mind on the subject.

Quid pro quo.


I am very protective of fans in this community, especially those that highlight the positive as opposed to bringing up something negative in regards to the attendees.

Have you ever once considered that your stance come across as extremely condescending? You are taking a shot at folks as being mindless bots who are told when to like something.

That is not the case. It's simply a matter of exposing someone to a style or artist they haven't paid attention to previously for whatever reason. However, it comes off as if it irritates you that they didn't pay attention to it before the fest appearance.

 

[Jasonic]

Of course there is sampling bias.......
No doubt about it.

The point was simply that it has been shown that when either a specific band or genre was disrespected here, but then represented at the fest, many times people's opinions were changed. That is kudos to the promoter for doing what he thought was in the best interest of the fest. That's why I sometimes laugh when certain bands here are dissed, given how opinions have changed (literally) overnight about certain bands and genres. Not sure if its because the band to some are more "socially acceptable" once part of a PP lineup or that the fan truly was blown away and dug the band's music after seeing them. I certainly hope it is the latter. Either way, I see absolutely nothing incorrect with my statement as it is an observation based on what I have seen on this forum (yes, speaking about THIS forum's response, which includes a sampling bias)

 

[Jasonic]

Have you ever once considered that your stance come across as extremely condescending? You are taking a shot at folks as being mindless bots who are told when to like something.

That is not the case. It's simply a matter of exposing someone to a style or artist they haven't paid attention to previously for whatever reason. However, it comes off as if it irritates you that they didn't pay attention to it before the fest appearance.

That is the key point here. What makes up the "For whatever reason"?

It could be that the fan had a preconceived notion that viking or pagan metal is evil and it all sucks. Then if said band (IE - Elvenking is one prime example I can think of) plays, people's minds open up to the band or genre.

You can take it as me calling people mindless. It was simply a statement that experiencing a band live can change perceptions (IE - that's where YOU have to take credit).

As Bob said above, people go apeshit for GHOST live. I have never experienced them live, but have seen enough videos to know they are a riot live and something to see. Lots of people here have shown their dislike for the band. Just saying that if they did play the fest (assuming you wanted them, which based on your thinking they blow I guess not), people might think differently. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.