Vocal Harmonies - 3rd's, 5th's, octaves, blah blah blah

[heshian46]

I think I've looked at every thread regarding vocal harmonies on this forum. From what I see, I dont think this has been covered, so hopefully this is recieved well.

While tracking vocals, I can hear what I think are vocal harmonies in my head. I do my best to try to sing my ideas through the talkback to the singer. But, number one, i have a horrible voice, and number two, I wish I knew what I was talking about when describing a 3rd above or the like.

My question is, can anyone offer a solid explanation of vocal (or any instrument really) harmonies and their theory? Examples would help (if possible).

I hope this isn't too much to ask. Im just trying to get a better understanding.

Thanks guys.

 

[Uros]

If your voice sucks, use acoustic guitars or something that's laying around and play it, in order to describe to the singer what you want from him.

 

[heshian46]

I guess what im saying is that it would be nice to know what im describing.

Or if the singer is already familiar with the theory to be able to say "lets go ahead and do a 3rd above that" and know what that's supposed to sound like.

 

[rob w]

What Uros said.

 

[heshian46]

This is a theory question here guys, not a "how do harmoneeze ¯\(°_o)/¯" question.

 

[Brandon E.]

Vocal harmonies usually aren't so simple to just stay at the same interval relative to the melody...when they sound good at least imo. I'm not sure what the question is here, you don't know what thirds and fifths are and want an explanation? When you tell him to sing a third above, you're telling him to sing the melody 2 notes up in the scale from where it was before.

You can just google intervals or harmony, it's really basic stuff and kind of a pain in the ass to teach over a forum.

And I think you'll have even worse luck trying to explain these things to a singer...best off just playing/singing it for him, or having him try a bunch of stuff on his own to see what sounds best.

 

[heshian46]

That's the thing though, I've done sessions with singers who did know about this stuff. When I tell them to do what I think is a 3rd above, I want to be sure.

 

[egan.]

You just have to learn what they sound like and it comes from practice and ear training. Some singers know what they're doing and can do it, some have no idea technically but have good instincts, and some lack anything.
If he doesn't know what the third is there is no sense in asking but if you don't know you shouldn't ask.
Generally thirds sound the sweetest, 4ths/5ths/octaves sound "open," 6ths have openness but are sweeter (inverted thirds) and 2nds/7ths are dissonant.
But again, you should ear train to know what you want. Aside from exercises it's effective to figure out what they do in the vocal parts you like.

 

[kass]

a 3rd above is 2 tones higher in whatever scale he's singing in.

The concept is very simple, but nobody will be able to help you get an intuitive grasp on what the intervals sound like. You just have to fiddle with it on some instrument.

 

[Plankis]

http://www.musictheory.net/

It's probably to difficult to explain in words for someone who doesn't have that knowledge. It's either singing or playing it on your instrument. Another very explainable way is to write it out in MIDI or copy the original vocal melody and tune that one to how you want it.

 

[kev]

The singer needs to know what scale he or she is singing in and then the relevant harmony can be scored against it. I always plot the main melody out, then work out the harmonies.

 

[Uros]

I said play it on your instrument because you don't know how to describe intervals. A good way to learn is to play intervals on a guitar or something, to make your ears 'learn' to hear difference between intervals. Or what Egan said, listen to the records, maybe even have a couple of songs on your hard drive which you can use as a reference.

This is just an (kinda offtopic) idea: have one copy of your original vocal track (track vocals on 2 different tracks at the same time), with Melodyne on insert. Then play around with original vocal track in Melodyne, raise it/lower it around a few half steps/steps, and when you like what you are hearing, playback it to the vocalist, and then have him sing that.

 

[Terminus]

I construct vocal harmonies just like I would a piano or a guitar harmony. There's no set melody that has to be all 5th's or all 3rd's, because it can literally be any interval at any given note. I would think that what the OP describes is a very restrictive method of creating harmony on any instrument let alone vocals.

 

[heshian46]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I agree, I think ear training is the key here. Also, I do have Melodyne, that may be a good tool to learn how things change, and what those changes sound like.

 

[Brandon E.]

As I said though, the best solution is usually not to just harmonize the entire thing up a third, it is more complicated than that. It might have a lot to do with chord tones where sometimes it might sound better to use a fourth or a fifth for certain notes within a melody. That's why saying to sing it "up a third" is going to cut out a lot of good options for a harmony line...I think the best approach is to put the theory in the back of your mind and just figure out what will sound best. If you do it yourself and have to show it to the singer you're best off using some kind of auditory means like a guitar or whatever. I think most singers should just have an instinctive ability to hear/write harmony lines, shame on those that don't. They should have already prepared that, whether or not it needs some tweaking by the producer.

 

[Humidfume]

I dunno if it helps you, but me and a friend do a lot of harmonies in this track, and those are what we refer to as counterpoint melodies. It's having 2 DIFFERENT melodies going over each other at the same time but at intervals apart relevant to the chord structure and scales. From a technical point of view I couldn't explain how far apart the notes are without playing it on a guitar and working it out. I just sing harmonies on the spot. I THINK, think being the key (no pun intended) word here that if you sing a main melody, most singers could work out another melody that flutters over the top. A great starting point is to pick 1 note and just repeat it over and over, it sounds boring by itself but often a single note harmony can sound REALLY great.

http://soundcloud.com/karhu/run

At 1:03 when we say "I guess it makes me weaker in other ways" listen to the "in other ways" part. I sing a different melody whereas Matt sings the same note 3 times in a row and it still creates a harmony.

 

[SentencedToBurn]

antares harmony engine is great for getting vocal harmony ideas

 

[RedDog]

http://soundcloud.com/karhu/run

At 1:03 when we say "I guess it makes me weaker in other ways" listen to the "in other ways" part. I sing a different melody whereas Matt sings the same note 3 times in a row and it still creates a harmony.

And if you gave me all the love you had to give me!

Loved it!

 

[Humidfume]

And if you gave me all the love you had to give me!

Loved it!

Thanks man! Just trying to help out with harmonies though

 

[Skinny Viking]

My singer don't know shit about what a 3rd is or a 5th or whatever ... I tried explaining it once and gave up so now when I say "let's try a harmony to that" he says "a little higher, a lot higher or really high?"

its worked out well so far

it helps that he has great instincts and a very good sense and command of pitch