Was Schopenhauer Right?

speed

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Nov 19, 2001
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When ole' Arthur stated that the natural state of humankind is misery and suffering, and happiness and cheer is but a illusion--a negative illusion.

Seems like so many spend their whole days in drudgery all for a few moments of so-called happiness. And then there are those that love suffering, and seem to seek it out and revel in it. Thoughts?
 
Seems ridiculous to me to say happiness is but an illusion and that we are all naturally miserable. Leans to far in one direction and deals in generalising absolutes, which i find difficult to swallow.
 
Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. What arguments does he offer in support of such ridiculous conclusions?
 
Cythraul said:
Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. What arguments does he offer in support of such ridiculous conclusions?

God I cant remember. But if I must, I will find it online. Its in World as Will and Idea. Im surprised you think this is nonsense oh enlightened Cythraul--the idea is essentially Buddhist. Schopenhauer "borrowed" it from them. Surely you've read the Dhammapadra etc?

Hm, its not easy finding his texts online. Here is a decent summary of his pessimism:



If reality is the blind will to live, and the world is the objectivation of such a blind will, life is painful misery. Schopenhauer makes a broad and acute analysis of all the various branches of existence, only to conclude that life is essentially pain and that it is a mistake to persevere in the will to live. According to him, everywhere in the world everything is desire, because all -- everywhere -- is will. To desire signifies suffering distress on account of the lack of what is desired. If the desire is not satisfied, the distress remains and increases; if it is satisfied, satiety and annoyance follow, and this in turn causes new desires and new distresses.

The will finds thousands of pretexts for perpetuating this unsatisfied hunger of the will to live. These pretexts only perpetuate the misery of life.

One such pretext and deceit is love. The will of the species masks itself under the pleasures of love with the purpose of perpetuating the desire for life in others. In so doing, it satisfies its own will to live.
Another pretext and deceit is egoism, which impels us to increase the pains of others in the hope of gaining some advantage in our own miserable life.
Still another deceit and illusion is progress which, in actuating itself, only makes more acute the sense of distress.
The Sacred Writer, in Schopenhauer's interpretation, says that increasing knowledge is only to increase distress. (Ref. Ecclesiastes 1:14, 18: I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind...For in much wisdom there is sorrow and he who stores up knowledge stores up grief.)

The whole world is miserable because of the universal blind will to live. Man can avoid his share of misery by suppressing the will to live.

Schopenhauer's philosophy is the antithesis of that of Hegel. In Hegel, reality and rationality coincide. Struggle and injustice are nullified and are justified in the higher synthesis; and, finally, progress and history entirely justify evil in its extreme manifestations of war and national calamities. In Schopenhauer, on the contrary, reality is blind and therefore essentially irrational and evil. Love, progress, history do not justify and annul misery; they are deceits and illusions behind which the blind, unconscious will masks itself, for this will is never satisfied with living and suffering. The systems of Hegel and Schopenhauer represent different atheistic conceptions of the world and of life.

Before the human being comes onto the scene with its principle of sufficient reason (or principle of individuation) there are no individuals. It is the human being that, in its very effort to know anything, objectifies an appearance for itself that involves the fragmentation of the will and its breakup into a comprehensible set of individuals. The implication of this fragmentation, given the nature of the will, is terrible: the result of the epistemological fragmentation is a world of constant struggle, where each individual thing strives against every other individual thing; the result is a permanent “war of all against all” akin to what Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679) characterized as the state of nature.

Kant concludes in the Critique of Pure Reason that we create the laws of nature (CPR, A125); similarly, Schopenhauer concludes in The World as Will and Representation that we create the violent state of nature, for he maintains that the individuation that the human being imposes upon things, is imposed upon a blind striving energy that, once it becomes individuated and objectified, turns against itself, consumes itself, and does violence to itself. His paradigm image is of the bulldog-ant of Australia, which when cut in half, struggles in a battle to the death between its head and tail. Our very quest for scientific and practical knowledge creates a world that feasts upon itself.

Hence derives Schopenhauer's renowned pessimism: he claims that as individuals, we are the unfortunate products of our own epistemological making, and that within the world of appearances that we ourselves structure, we are forever doomed to fight with other individuals, and to want more than we can ever have. On Schopenhauer's view, the world of daily life is essentially violent and frustrating; it is a world that, as long as our consciousness remains at that level where the principle of sufficient reason applies in its fourfold root, will never resolve itself into a condition of greater tranquillity. As he explicitly states, daily life “is suffering” (WWR, Section 56) and to express this, he employs images of frustration taken from classical Greek mythology, such as those of Tantalus and the Danaids, along with the suffering of Ixion on the ever-spinning wheel of fire.
 
I'll read and reply later but right now I'll just say that Buddhism is essentially nonsense.
 
Cythraul said:
I'll read and reply later but right now I'll just say that Buddhism is essentially nonsense.

Well it goes far beyond Buddhism. However, what isnt nonsense? Surely everything of a irrational, non-scientific, mystical-transcendental nature you immediately condemn as being nonsense or ridiculous. So, what do you offer in its place as nourishment for mankind? And how do you explain the irrationality and chaotic nature of human and universal existence?
 
I'm interested in the arguments as to why you think Buddhism is nonsense.

I've only read Schopenhauer with the pretext of defending suicide, so I'm somewhat oblivious to much of this. Although I understand where he derived his pessimism a bit more now, I'm still of the opinion that he is dealing in absolutes and perhaps needs to utilise some of the "maybe logic" of Robert A Wilson :)
 
speed said:
When ole' Arthur stated that the natural state of humankind is misery and suffering, and happiness and cheer is but a illusion--a negative illusion.

Happiness = absence of sadness, but sadness = absence of happiness -- the latter doesn't make much sense, since happiness is by nature a positive attribute. Most of life is suffering, and that's why happiness is valuable.
 
Cythraul said:
I'll read and reply later but right now I'll just say that Buddhism is essentially nonsense.

I agree. Hinduism is genius, Buddhism is mostly nonsense. Of course, anything's better than Judaism, which is materialism in philosophical form and worthy of gassing!
 
I know you think Wikipedia sucks (after all, most people think it's good, and you can never agree with the Crowd even if its right), but: "Sanātana Dharma" (The Eternal Values ), Hinduism's traditional name, speaks to the idea that certain spiritual principles hold eternally true, transcending man-made constructs, representing a pure science of consciousness"
Isn't that, like, totally Judeo-Christian in nature?
 
infoterror said:
Happiness = absence of sadness, but sadness = absence of happiness -- the latter doesn't make much sense, since happiness is by nature a positive attribute. Most of life is suffering, and that's why happiness is valuable.

Well I was hoping it would turn into this kind of discussion, rather than a battle over semantics and absolutes etc. I think your equation is far too simplistic, and it relies on the assumption that people are sad because they are not happy, and vice versa. SOme people are happy due to their suffering. The ecstatic pain of saints and martyrs.

I was just out and about yesterday, and I noticed everywhere I went people looked stressed, hurried, depressed, and unhappy. And then there was a little kid at the post office that was playing and having fun, and everyone was smiling, and obviously wishing they could be so happy and carefree. So, this idea of Schopenhauers came into my mind. Sure, its a Buddhist--Ascetic, almost even Christian kind of idea, that suffering holds more value, and is the real state of our lives. And frankly I cant disagree.
 
I don't think it's semantics to merely question whether Schopenhauer was a man of great sadness and hence twisted his philosophy to suit it.

From what I've read since you posted this, His whole philosophy was based on the notion that will always prevails over reason, and while i see why he developed that idea i'm not entirely sure it's a sound one. I imagine many people do indeed live to the maxim of letting will rather than reason decide the courses of their lives. However, i think it's more fitting to say its a mixture of the two that generally contribute to decisions of most folks, sometimes will wins and sometmes reason will prevail.

Speed, from a psychological point of view, are you feeling glum yourself atm, and perhaps being drawn towards schopenhauer because of that reason?
 
Final_Product said:
I don't think it's semantics to merely question whether Schopenhauer was a man of great sadness and hence twisted his philosophy to suit it.

From what I've read since you posted this, His whole philosophy was based on the notion that will always prevails over reason, and while i see why he developed that idea i'm not entirely sure it's a sound one. I imagine many people do indeed live to the maxim of letting will rather than reason decide the courses of their lives. However, i think it's more fitting to say its a mixture of the two that generally contribute to decisions of most folks, sometimes will wins and sometmes reason will prevail.

Speed, from a psychological point of view, are you feeling glum yourself atm, and perhaps being drawn towards schopenhauer because of that reason?


Nice intuition, yes, I believe the last few days I have been rather glum; being jerked around about a job I was supposed to get and was pulled out from under me, girlfriend issues, and it turned rather gloomy and rainy outside yesterday.

But I do like Schopenhauer, and I agree with your criticisms. I think his general pessimism and hatred of rationality like Nietzsche, most decent great writers, artists, Cioran etc, is something that attracts a certain kind of person. Someone more rational, systematic, and scientific like say Cythraul, would never be attracted to it, just as I would never be attracted to rationality. Just an observation.
 
I think we all have tendencies to be drawn towards the "tortured genius" personality. I've always entertained the possibility that we ascribe a higher status to such people, merely because they are difficult to understand. Nietzsche, Schopenhauer are examples, as well as the likes of Syd Barret (spelling?).

It seems to make some sense that your personality type (as much as such a thing exists) will draw you to particular philosophers, ideas etc. I reckon it can be likened to the way folks tend to listen to emotional music when they are upset/depressed when they may tend to listen to a different style. I know that is extraneous to the discussion of Schopenhauer, but relevant considering what possibly is drawing you to him at this time. I find that to be quite fascinating.
 
Final_Product said:
I don't think it's semantics to merely question whether Schopenhauer was a man of great sadness and hence twisted his philosophy to suit it.

From what I've read since you posted this, His whole philosophy was based on the notion that will always prevails over reason, and while i see why he developed that idea i'm not entirely sure it's a sound one. I imagine many people do indeed live to the maxim of letting will rather than reason decide the courses of their lives. However, i think it's more fitting to say its a mixture of the two that generally contribute to decisions of most folks, sometimes will wins and sometmes reason will prevail.

Speed, from a psychological point of view, are you feeling glum yourself atm, and perhaps being drawn towards schopenhauer because of that reason?


Schopenhauer states that intellect cannot will per se, only the will can do so. The intellect may uncover knowledge, but it cannot defeat the will because it is incapable of willing. It's not that intellect is prevailed over, because it is not a competing force. It can only gain understanding of the will's whims, but cannot override or replace them. In this way, it can be seen as entirely a subservient faculty.
 
Whoa.
I think the main idea of the text is being overlooked a bit.

I would suggest, by way of substantive reference, a quick read of Kierkaagard's dissertation of Abraham (Fear and Trembling) and Hegel's Master/Slave dialectic (Phenomenology of Mind). Failing that, take a look at Nietzche's Thus Spake Zarathustra or Freud's Society and its Discontents. Please revisit Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

All academic reference aside, Schopenhauer's idea that "The natural state of humankind is misery and suffering" is not a pessimistic view. It is an expression of the idea that Man's ability to evolve (in the phenomenological sense) requires that he not be satisfied, in some way, with his current state of being. If it is a basic, human yearning to be happy, to be fulfilled, then the person that will become more than he is, is the person that has a need to be more than he currently is.

Well-known ideas like "Necessity is the Mother of invention" are rooted in this idea.
 
Demiurge said:
Schopenhauer states that intellect cannot will per se, only the will can do so. The intellect may uncover knowledge, but it cannot defeat the will because it is incapable of willing. It's not that intellect is prevailed over, because it is not a competing force. It can only gain understanding of the will's whims, but cannot override or replace them. In this way, it can be seen as entirely a subservient faculty.

Right, I see where your coming from. However, if the intellect can understand the will's whims can it still not override the will on certain occasions? As you've said, it cant "will" but it must be able to passively override the will on occasions where it is fitting to do so? That would remove the notion of competing, but still fit in the with will willing and the intellect not willing.

With relation to the above post, I think that makes alot of sense. I'd still say that Schopenhauer WAS a pessimist, but the idea that mans natural state of unhappiness drives him to evolve, phenomenologically seems to make some sense. But, couldnt one argue that mans natural state is happiness and that when we finally aquire this stage we have the ability to evolve phenomenologically?
 
Final_Product said:
I think we all have tendencies to be drawn towards the "tortured genius" personality. I've always entertained the possibility that we ascribe a higher status to such people, merely because they are difficult to understand. Nietzsche, Schopenhauer are examples, as well as the likes of Syd Barret (spelling?).

It seems to make some sense that your personality type (as much as such a thing exists) will draw you to particular philosophers, ideas etc. I reckon it can be likened to the way folks tend to listen to emotional music when they are upset/depressed when they may tend to listen to a different style. I know that is extraneous to the discussion of Schopenhauer, but relevant considering what possibly is drawing you to him at this time. I find that to be quite fascinating.

First another excellent post ARC150.

I do believe Final Product, that basic psychology--as in happiness, sadness, simple emotions-- have been the most neglected areas of Western thought, especially religious and philosophical thought. I know Bertrand Russell stated the same thing. We have left it up to psychology, and they have only made the problems worse.

The great strength of eastern religion and philosophy, is how much time and energy they spend on such ideas and topics.
 
Final_Product said:
Right, I see where your coming from. However, if the intellect can understand the will's whims can it still not override the will on certain occasions? As you've said, it cant "will" but it must be able to passively override the will on occasions where it is fitting to do so? That would remove the notion of competing, but still fit in the with will willing and the intellect not willing.

We've already established that it is the will alone that can will, thus the intellect cannot, as it is not the will itself, but a faculty at its disposal. It cannot "override" the will because that would mean performing its function.
 
Demiurge said:
We've already established that it is the will alone that can will, thus the intellect cannot, as it is not the will itself, but a faculty at its disposal. It cannot "override" the will because that would mean performing its function.

Ok, I was just asking a question, please don't feel the need to talk down to me.