weird "business problem", how would you handle it?
- Thread starter joeymusicguy
- Start date
AdamWathan
Member
Yeah knock something up quick and give it to them and be done with it. It isn't going to ruin your reputation by any means.
doclegion
Contagious Destruction
- Dec 31, 2006
- 550
- 0
- 16
Hell yea, or tell them to be patient and just do a little bit at a time hour here and there, you dont wanna look like a bad guy....
After 5 days of tracking was up i would have discussed some options probably like, we finish now and i can get it edited and mix/mastered by the end of 10 days..
I dont know
Good luck
Via Noctis
Member
Glenn Fricker
Very Metal &Very Bad News
Dude, you're in between the proverbial "rock and a hard place."
If you let them know you were busy ahead of time, and had to squeeze them in just to track, tell them to "back the fuck off and be patient." There's only 24 hours in a day & nobody should have to kill themselves to meet some arbitrary deadline.
Otherwise, it's thier choice on what happens with the mixes. If they can't wait, they can pay someone else. End of story.
At the end of the day, you've gotta do what's right for you.
If you let them know you were busy ahead of time, and had to squeeze them in just to track, tell them to "back the fuck off and be patient." There's only 24 hours in a day & nobody should have to kill themselves to meet some arbitrary deadline.
Otherwise, it's thier choice on what happens with the mixes. If they can't wait, they can pay someone else. End of story.
At the end of the day, you've gotta do what's right for you.
dontletmedrown
Producer/Composer
- Jul 8, 2006
- 259
- 0
- 16
Doesn't make it right. Remember they paid $2500 and didn't even get a ref mix. They got NOTHING except audio files stored on his hard drive. Also, it might not hurt his overall reputation, but it could hurt his kneecaps if some nutjob in the band decides they want their $2500 back.
This is where we disgree. When you're running a business, it usually makes sense to do what is right for the customer-- even when it's an inconvenience for you.
AdamWathan
Member
Doesn't make it right. Remember they paid $2500 and didn't even get a ref mix. They got NOTHING except audio files stored on his hard drive. Also, it might not hurt his overall reputation, but it could hurt his kneecaps if some nutjob in the band decides they want their $2500 back.
I mean it won't hurt his reputation to have one non-perfect mix out there. I still agree he needs to provide them with a mix but if they want it right away even when they agreed to the situation under the "I'll finish it when I have time" circumstances then they'll have to take what they can get. Lots of bands pay a lot of money for products that aren't perfect and are disappointed in the end but there's nothing you can do about it, especially in a situation like this where the band spent all the time that Joey had available tracking and didn't leave him any of that spare time to mix it, knowing full well in advance that he didn't have any time after the allotted time he specified to do any work on the project afterwards.
They deserve a mix for sure but given the circumstances it is impossible for them to expect it to be of the same caliber as Joey's other stuff.
dontletmedrown
Producer/Composer
- Jul 8, 2006
- 259
- 0
- 16
John_C
formerly Skeksis268
They didn't buy a product from him. They bought 10 days of studio time. They got 10 days of studio time.
You don't pay for pizza by the minute, you pay by the pizza. They are not comparable.
If he said he'd produce them the finished tracks in the 10 days, that'd be different. But he didn't
For future reference though this is why contracts matter and are worth the bother
You don't pay for pizza by the minute, you pay by the pizza. They are not comparable.
If he said he'd produce them the finished tracks in the 10 days, that'd be different. But he didn't
For future reference though this is why contracts matter and are worth the bother
i had two projects like this... old friends that pressured me into booking them... the first when i didn't really have the time and they didn't really have enough money...
with the first one, i told them we'd need more than 10 days to track the 12-song album of fairly complex death metal with keys and tricky solos, etc... but, they insisted. the main guy, my buddy, swore up and down that the drummer was totally ready, would take 2 days, etc et.blah blah.. and proceeded to do part of my job as producer by outlining the entire schedule (and he was very unrealistic with it). i felt very pressured, because of our friendship... but i accepted, knowing that that eventually they'd realize that we'd probably end up with only drums, rhythms, and maybe bass finished...
and that's exactly what happened... first, drums took 5 days because the drummer was totally not at all ready. i hired an assistant to help speed things up, but of course we ended the 10 days with drums done, keys done, rhythm guitars mostly done, one song on bass done and one song on vocals done. and since we put in 12-14 hour days i was able to say "i told you so" with no hesitation....
so far, this was ok, no complaints from the client.... the singer/guitarist was also playing bass for the session, so only he needed to return, and he booked it for several months later.... both to fit my schedule, and so he could earn the money to return. at the time i did not realize that he somehow felt he had paid me in full.... the money he was talking about raising was for his plane ticket.
well after several months the date approached, and the guy cancels because he's cut his finger nearly off with an electric saw at his work.... so, several more months pass and he's finally able to return... it's now been well over a year since we started. and i'm already starting to get the feeling from the guy, despite all my warnings to him to book more time at the start, that he somehow is blaming me.
he finally returns after his finger heals, and we complete the tracking. i advise him that, having waited this long for him to come back, that i haven't been sitting on any time for him... especially since he had decided he'd paid me enough, despite it was HIM and HIS band that used all the initial time and didn't finish... so he'd have to be patient as i would only be able to work on the mix during breaks in my already very full schedule. He grumbled quite a bit about this, and my suspicion was confirmed; he blamed me for the album not already being done, despite the fact that he had ignored my pleas for him to book more time, and he also felt that since he had booked his original session before my current workload, that he should take precedence over those projects... nevermind that all my current clients had booked enough time, finished their recordings on time, and paid full rate.... no, he was special, and should be treated so (or so he clearly believed).
of course it took some time to mix the album... one song at a time, here and there, between my booked sessions. finished it several months ago now... band still looking for label. it really came out great, and i think they deserve a deal.... but i surely learned some things about working for friends on that one; they believe, ALWAYS, that they are special and despite paying less than anyone else they are pushier and more demanding than anyone else... and in the case of this guy, he was totally unable to remember that he was the one to ignore my strong advice to book more time, and he had split his finger open causing another huge delay, on top of the one that he caused by not booking enough time to start with...
it didn't kill our friendship, but it came close.... getting the finished mix, and loving it, really calmed him down.. but he still has to be reminded of his two major fuck-ups regarding the scheduling of his recording each time we talk about the album. i'm a busy guy.... if you don't book enough time to start with, and don't pay attention to my advice on the schedule.... well, you may well have quite some time to wait.
the second example of this is still ongoing... it was originally booked right after the first band i just talked about. this band's main guy wanted desperately to book time before he had even written a note of music... i refused to book him at that time. so, he wrote the music and got one other guy, a guitarist, and asked me to find a session drummer. i found one, and we sent him the guy's demos. now he INSISTED on booking.... despite the fact that he had no lyrics and no SINGER!! i finally relented, because of our friendship... and not wanting him to piss his money away at a local yokel recording shack and end with a crappy product.
so we flew the drummer up and recorded all drums, keys, and guitars.... but now he had to find a singer and write vocal lines and lryics. this took him over a year to do... finally he did and within a couple months i had the time to book him for the vox sessions. as with the other band, i made it clear that i hadn't held on to any time for him while he searched for singers.... and that since i gave him a serious "buddy deal", i wasn't about to bump any currently booked work...
so i'm only just now about to be able to have the time to mix this... but again it will be a song or two at a time, in between my current, full-rate paying gigs with clients who follow my advice... lol. at least this guy is much calmer... but it's still a tough situation and i HATE being in it...
but no matter what i would NEVER have paid either of these guys to get someone else... if the remaining guy wants to do that, he can... but he doesn't want to. that's just as well, because if he did he'd be paying them himself.
joey, i think you know the right answer to your issue... but like i was, with the first guy especially, you feel beholden to them because of the friendship... and in your case, family ties. You need to point out to them that you did them an enormous favor, and that it caused you hardship, and that they can feel free to move on to someone else. That they expect you to pay for that option is spit in the face, and shows that they do not hold you in the same respect and regard that you held them by taking the project when you really didn't want to. there may be no avoiding their anger at this point... but they'll get over it.
the rub is that it's just a bad idea to give in to friendship/family pressure regarding your profession.. and discounts are a bad idea even if you aren't friends or related... i've learned my lessons on these issues finally.
best of luck
with the first one, i told them we'd need more than 10 days to track the 12-song album of fairly complex death metal with keys and tricky solos, etc... but, they insisted. the main guy, my buddy, swore up and down that the drummer was totally ready, would take 2 days, etc et.blah blah.. and proceeded to do part of my job as producer by outlining the entire schedule (and he was very unrealistic with it). i felt very pressured, because of our friendship... but i accepted, knowing that that eventually they'd realize that we'd probably end up with only drums, rhythms, and maybe bass finished...
and that's exactly what happened... first, drums took 5 days because the drummer was totally not at all ready. i hired an assistant to help speed things up, but of course we ended the 10 days with drums done, keys done, rhythm guitars mostly done, one song on bass done and one song on vocals done. and since we put in 12-14 hour days i was able to say "i told you so" with no hesitation....
so far, this was ok, no complaints from the client.... the singer/guitarist was also playing bass for the session, so only he needed to return, and he booked it for several months later.... both to fit my schedule, and so he could earn the money to return. at the time i did not realize that he somehow felt he had paid me in full.... the money he was talking about raising was for his plane ticket.
well after several months the date approached, and the guy cancels because he's cut his finger nearly off with an electric saw at his work.... so, several more months pass and he's finally able to return... it's now been well over a year since we started. and i'm already starting to get the feeling from the guy, despite all my warnings to him to book more time at the start, that he somehow is blaming me.
he finally returns after his finger heals, and we complete the tracking. i advise him that, having waited this long for him to come back, that i haven't been sitting on any time for him... especially since he had decided he'd paid me enough, despite it was HIM and HIS band that used all the initial time and didn't finish... so he'd have to be patient as i would only be able to work on the mix during breaks in my already very full schedule. He grumbled quite a bit about this, and my suspicion was confirmed; he blamed me for the album not already being done, despite the fact that he had ignored my pleas for him to book more time, and he also felt that since he had booked his original session before my current workload, that he should take precedence over those projects... nevermind that all my current clients had booked enough time, finished their recordings on time, and paid full rate.... no, he was special, and should be treated so (or so he clearly believed).
of course it took some time to mix the album... one song at a time, here and there, between my booked sessions. finished it several months ago now... band still looking for label. it really came out great, and i think they deserve a deal.... but i surely learned some things about working for friends on that one; they believe, ALWAYS, that they are special and despite paying less than anyone else they are pushier and more demanding than anyone else... and in the case of this guy, he was totally unable to remember that he was the one to ignore my strong advice to book more time, and he had split his finger open causing another huge delay, on top of the one that he caused by not booking enough time to start with...
it didn't kill our friendship, but it came close.... getting the finished mix, and loving it, really calmed him down.. but he still has to be reminded of his two major fuck-ups regarding the scheduling of his recording each time we talk about the album. i'm a busy guy.... if you don't book enough time to start with, and don't pay attention to my advice on the schedule.... well, you may well have quite some time to wait.
the second example of this is still ongoing... it was originally booked right after the first band i just talked about. this band's main guy wanted desperately to book time before he had even written a note of music... i refused to book him at that time. so, he wrote the music and got one other guy, a guitarist, and asked me to find a session drummer. i found one, and we sent him the guy's demos. now he INSISTED on booking.... despite the fact that he had no lyrics and no SINGER!! i finally relented, because of our friendship... and not wanting him to piss his money away at a local yokel recording shack and end with a crappy product.
so we flew the drummer up and recorded all drums, keys, and guitars.... but now he had to find a singer and write vocal lines and lryics. this took him over a year to do... finally he did and within a couple months i had the time to book him for the vox sessions. as with the other band, i made it clear that i hadn't held on to any time for him while he searched for singers.... and that since i gave him a serious "buddy deal", i wasn't about to bump any currently booked work...
so i'm only just now about to be able to have the time to mix this... but again it will be a song or two at a time, in between my current, full-rate paying gigs with clients who follow my advice... lol. at least this guy is much calmer... but it's still a tough situation and i HATE being in it...
but no matter what i would NEVER have paid either of these guys to get someone else... if the remaining guy wants to do that, he can... but he doesn't want to. that's just as well, because if he did he'd be paying them himself.
joey, i think you know the right answer to your issue... but like i was, with the first guy especially, you feel beholden to them because of the friendship... and in your case, family ties. You need to point out to them that you did them an enormous favor, and that it caused you hardship, and that they can feel free to move on to someone else. That they expect you to pay for that option is spit in the face, and shows that they do not hold you in the same respect and regard that you held them by taking the project when you really didn't want to. there may be no avoiding their anger at this point... but they'll get over it.
the rub is that it's just a bad idea to give in to friendship/family pressure regarding your profession.. and discounts are a bad idea even if you aren't friends or related... i've learned my lessons on these issues finally.
best of luck
gabriel g.
Member
I would just talk to the dudes one more time!!!
You told them, that the time is short (too short)
You did them a great deal.
Tell them what you normaly get from bands (after tracking, mixing, mastering) compared to their studio time.
Tell them to wait and you finish their record (and they have to pay you the more days) or cut them a deal...
MAKE CONTRACTS!!!!!
Better beeing HARD in the contracts and be kind personal.
I record my best friends in august, but I gave them a timetable and a cost overview with fixed price for everything. And I gave them a deadline.
You told them, that the time is short (too short)
You did them a great deal.
Tell them what you normaly get from bands (after tracking, mixing, mastering) compared to their studio time.
Tell them to wait and you finish their record (and they have to pay you the more days) or cut them a deal...
MAKE CONTRACTS!!!!!
Better beeing HARD in the contracts and be kind personal.
I record my best friends in august, but I gave them a timetable and a cost overview with fixed price for everything. And I gave them a deadline.
Glenn Fricker
Very Metal &Very Bad News
Been there, done that. I'm on year 11 of running a studio, and I'm booked quite solid at the moment. I'll bend over backwards for my customers, and put up with all kinds of bullshit, but I won't kill myself. Sorry, but they can't have the "pound of flesh." ...And that's what it seems they want out of Joey.
abyssofdreams
knows what you think.
Never work for (close) friends. I'm doing this myself at times but it would be better if I wouldn't, just to avoid any possible uncomfy situations...
