What about writing?

Wow man...
I'm proud to have a forum in which bass players and music fans can come and talk about whatever. I guess it's the only bass player forum that I know of, anyway...shows you how much I get around on the internet.
And being the kind of "den mother" of you aspiring bassists is an honor, I never had anything like this when I was a young-and-learning dude.

If anybody has ever read anything I wrote on this topic "to theory or not to theory" you'll already know my stance and I don't want to join in on either side of this debate. But I have to jump in now and give my input. I don't put much weight on theory training to help one compose. But the one not-so-secret ingredent that propels one to create something out of nothing, is inspiration.
Whoa...picture that. It's the one thing we're possibly born to possess, or even aquire along the way. Rules schmooles...learn 'em if you want, ignore 'em if you want. There's been proven successes and failures on both sides, and most of us dwell in the midstream somewhere. But (now this is where my opinion enters in) what makes good music is inspiration to write, and listening to inspired music is inspiring too. It's a whole recycling fest. And you guys are spending so much time going back and forth about this and that you could be doing one of two things to get inspired...and those are obviously listening, or jumping in and just composing...writing...! Just get to it man! You either got it or you don't, and if you don't you can always go find some! If learning theory inspires you to use you newly found knowledge in examples of composition...do it! If you wanna take on the world with your lack of theory (i.e. C.Schuldiner attitude)...well then do it!
Fuck, phew...there. Now the dungeon master has spoken. Now go be good little bass players and go make music, we got a lot of catching up to do...!
SDG
 
Word up, Steve! Helpful as always. I completely agree. :headbang:

As for a good, inviting bassist's forum, there's another one as well- www.talkbass.com . I'm a regular member, and everyone is so nice and in good spirits and humor. On an interesting note, as well, Death bassist Kelly Conlon just joined- I believe he played on Symbolic.
 
Amen, Steve. Amen. Too bad I'm not really a bass player. I just try to be one at times. Drumming is expensive and sucks when your band doesn't appreciate you. But I knew it was the instrument for me when I sat down and just started playing my heart out and fuckin' around with things and making little accents and changing things and basically telling the world to fuck off and that I was gonna do my thing...so I guess that's inspiration. Inspiration: the foundation for everything. Oh, and to anyone seeing Motorhead anytime soon, check out the drum solo Mikkey Dee's been doing on "Sacrifice" for the past ten years. Don't worry they play it at every show. You can't tell me the 5 - 6 1/2 minute(?) solo doesn't move you.
 
wow! hippie posts again, good to hear from you steve!

i'd like to add my 2 cents, especially about beethoven. yes, he became totally deaf later in life. and he wrote one of europe's great masterpieces (9th symphony) while totally deaf. also some very good quartets and the missa solemnis. honestly i don't understand how one can favor ludwig's contemporaries, but as the romans say "De gustibus non est disputandum"
but i'd like to add that beethoven in fact had a great ear, when he could hear. he had perfect pitch from a lifetime of playing and studying music, and was in his youth considered a fiery and passionate interpreter of music on the piano. in fact he a reputation for piano duels...
the point is that a good ear is very important for playing music. otherwise how can you learn from the music you hear? the answer to that question is of course theory. i studied theory for some time. theory is important. i don't like to think of music theory as "rules" because it is so much more. is learning the minor scale a rule? it sure is music theory. i think theory is an important tool, but the most important one is the imagination.
 
Pretty much what I have been trying to say all along, Alumnus. In fact, the more theory you know the less rules you have to follow as far as I'm concerned. As far as being inspired goes; how inspiring is it to know that you have written music that isn't following the same formula as every other I IV V or II V I clone that are only concerned with making it "sound right"?
 
Said it before and I'll say it again, "I say what I say, damn what anyone else thinks 'bout what I do or say, and I'll continue to do whatever it is I wanna do."
 
I beg to differ Anihillation. Music like any other art form is in fact a science. All opinions aside, wavemotion, chromatic and pythagorean divisions of waves, harmonics, and any other type of mathemtical or physical application that deals with the generation of sound are all involved in the making of music. The bottom line is as I have been saying repeatedly, that those that understand the 'science' are less likely to be subject to the rules imposed by social conditioning.

I personally don't see the difference between science and art anyway. No artform is without scientific application and no science is without artistic application. As I said though, the people that are less likely to be following the imposed rules of condtioning and also have the tools to be 'original' and 'innovative' are the ones that can understand the 'science' and apply it to the 'artform'.
 
Okay, because it's obvious that quite a few of you don't understand what theory is or even the point of it, i'm going to write this.

First, to study theory, is to study how sound functions. that is to understand why something sounds like it does. to the novice, they are taught theory by giving them the major and the holy trinity of minor. you setup all these laws for them and slap them on their wrist if they disobey. eventually, as the student becomes more of a master of the art, those laws and rules eventually fade away.
what happened to the student through studying all this theory, is the student's awareness of how the sounds function and why they function like they do increases. to put it in another way, at first you were blind but eventually you could see.
you can't really be in control if you don't understand what you're doing. This is why i think when some hack tells a bunch of kids who look up to him for guidance some bullshit like "learning theory isn't necessary" is a bunch of bullshit.
now this does not mean, you need a formal education to understand theory, it doesn't matter where or how you learn something as long as you do. theory isn't so much memorizing a bunch of scales, how to read manuscript or drawing circles of fifths or fourths etc etc. NO it's mostly about a methodology, a system of thought for which you can replicate anything, or push the envelope to a new mode of idea.
 
No it is an art. You don't need to know theory or the science to make great music. Music is an aural art. Look at Hendrix he did not know theory and look what he did. People said "you can't do that on a guitar". He did it.
 
Can't do what, play 12 bar blues, I IV V progressions and pentationic riffs? People were doing that long before Hendrix was even born. I don't know who 'they' were that were saying it, but they were wrong. Once again though since you were obviously not paying attention you might have missed the part where I said there is really no difference between science and art. Honestly though, and with about as much due respect as I can possibly muster for someone who is obviously trying to deride everything I have been saying in this thread, people generally have the opinion that you don't need to do this or that to be a great musician because they are lazy and have never been able to work it out for themselves. What is great is a matter of opinion, and the point of this thread was, in case you missed it, about whether knowing theory could help in knowing how to write music. Only an utter idiot would say it doesn't or can't, and an idiot who doesn't know anything about theory at that. I think you need to go through this thread and read what has been said carefully post by post before you make these idiotic comments about how music is an art not a science. Believe me if you had a clue about theory you wouldn't be saying this nonsense. Furthermore why the hell are you trying to discourage anyone that does want to know about theory? You seem pretty misologystic to me.
 
K let me sum up this thread:

People arguing over idiotic shit.

Steve said it best.

"If learning theory inspires you to use you newly found knowledge in examples of composition...do it! If you wanna take on the world with your lack of theory (i.e. C.Schuldiner attitude)...well then do it! "

"Proper" theory training is not essential to make good music, in fact I believe that a good amount of metal musicians are not formally trained in music theory, though it will most likely certainly help you compose. Somebody once said on another forum that whether you know it or not, you're using music theory when you write music, whether you're saying "yeah, I should use the pentatonic scale for this solo" or not. That's that.
 
Yeah, you are right. We should all be arguing over which brand of beer Steve endorses instead, because you know how important drinking the right beer is to making music.
 
Shit, I just realised I have more to say once again, being somewhat 'passionate' about this "idiotic" subject.
Firstly, no-one said anything about "proper training" in theory being a factor in making "good" music.
Secondly, what good music is is a matter of opinion
Thirdly, I said exactly the same thing in this thread about using theory and not knowing it.
But lastly I want to say this. The context in which theory is being discussed for my part is NOT about learning formal rules and living by them. It IS about understanding what you are doing and being able to analyse it so that when you are composing you understand the 'language' enough to chose the words you want to say more easily and with greater variety. Sure, you can compose music without studying theory. I think it's completely a matter of opinion about whether it is good or not and the same applies to the composer that does use a theoretical approach. Also this applies to music universally, not just 'metal'.
The bottom line, and once again I re-itterate that this was the original point of the thread, is that if you have a good understanding of theory it can only benefit you. Go and read Travis' original post. He clearly says that he is having trouble satisfying his 'creativity' when he writes and wants to know if learning about theory can help. So far not one person on this thread has been able to say "no it won't help". All anyone has said is "you don't neccessarily need it" or "you don't need it, look at Hendrix he was great".
The point isn't whether you need it or not the point is can it help. I think the answer is pretty obvious.
 
Interesting how no one mentioned how some of the greatest happenings in music were at least half accident. 'll tell you something though, if a bartender comes to me with the "wrong" kinda beer, i.e. a fuckin' PBR instead of an Anchor Steam or Gulden Draak, I'm gonna jump the muthafucka. Oh, and I'm sorry that I suck so bad at music...such is the waste of one quarter century. Never wasted anytime drinking though. So from the "passionate" people on this thread, I expect nothing less than the greatest compositions anyone has to offer for about the next ten years. Nothing less.
 
What I think would be interesting would be finding out what the "greatest happenings in music" are and what makes them so great. Weren't you the one that said, "And another thing is, greatness is often debatable history being written by the winners. One can have a lot of respect for an artist without appreciating their work. Taste is a useless thing to argue about because it doesn't come down to logic: "right" or "wrong" just don't apply. Tastes differ"?

Also if you are trying to bring my skill as a composer into it, I would point out that it is really arbitrary to the topic. Once again it is a matter of opinion.

I never said anything about whether composing one way or the other is right or wrong either, so be nice to that barman. At least you have good taste in beer. Gulden Draak is my favourite.
 
Nothinggod said:
What I think would be interesting would be finding out what the "greatest happenings in music" are and what makes them so great. Weren't you the one that said, "And another thing is, greatness is often debatable history being written by the winners. One can have a lot of respect for an artist without appreciating their work. Taste is a useless thing to argue about because it doesn't come down to logic: "right" or "wrong" just don't apply. Tastes differ"? Also if you are trying to bring my skill as a composer into it, I would point out that it is really arbitrary to the topic. Once again it is a matter of opinion. I never said anything about whether composing one way or the other is right or wrong either
Click to expand...

Great. Yes, I did say all that. What's the point? Ever heard the adage "reasonable people will disagree"? Even unreasonable people disagree. All I do is make judgements based on my own rubric. I call the shots as I see 'em. Sometimes I call 'em right, sometimes I call 'em wrong. I'm one of the few people in this "modern world" it seems that is willing to risk being wrong. And I've had a lot of years to be in the wrong, and have been in the wrong for years. But what this entire post exemplifies is that people WILL and DO disagree, but more importantly they're so fucking sure they're right and they have the Holy Grail that anyone who deviates from their "perfect view of music" is a heretic. Think whatcha wanna think, and unless convinced otherwise, I'll think and say what I wanna. Nuff said.
 
I think the point is pretty obvious really, that you are contradicting yourself. First you are telling me that what is great is based on opinion and next you are telling me emphatically that the greatest happenings in music were half by accident. So I want to know what these great happenings are. I don't know what this little tirade about the holy grail is about and about how you are entitled to your opinion, or whatever it is you are trying to say, though. You seem to be the one that is getting upset at someone elses opinion. Once again though I have to re-itterate the point of the thread because it seems you still don't get it. "Is theory a useful tool in writing music". As I said before, my opinion is that there is no way it can't be. I am yet to see a single person give me any kind of rationale for how it wouldn't be, only whether you need it or not. I mean that's all nice to have that opinion, most lazy people do, in my experience. The point of the post isn't whether you agree with me or not anyway, the point is whether you can give a rational, objective argument for your point of view, which I fail to see with any lucidity. Most of your posts seem to meander off into arbitrary and subjective pseudo-intellectual musings about how I think I am right and won't listen to your side of the argument. Or something to that effect. I have been pretty objective about your opinions actually and have given you a respectful chance to clarify your point when you make these remarks about "the greatest" and when you imply that I think that this is right and that is wrong, regardless of what I have said and repeated to say about my position on this topic. This whole "I'm going to say and think what I want to" nonsense you keep using to justify every rant you make also is pointless. No-one is telling you that you can't think and say what you want to. On the other hand you should expect the same from anyone else. Saying "I can think and say what I want to" is just your way of defending any challenge to anything you say. Why don't you try and respond to the topic or subject without resorting to these ad hominem implications?
 
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