What do music fans want from the bands? The Labels? The Promoters? Help us out!

[SkiBumMSP]

Its not necessarily tastes softening. Its more like the issue of having two kids at home under the age of 4, plus a job that starts between 7 and 8 in the morning the following day, and (in my case) NO ONE worthwhile comes to Columbus! Anything worth seeing requires driving to Chicago, Detroit, or Cleveland.

At 40 (will be as to this Sunday), my tastes certainly have not softened at all either.

Like others, I do have a job that I need to go to. At least in my case, I don't have any kids to have to deal with, plus having a place like Jaxx that has been hosting a decent amount of the types of acts that I want to see, relatively nearby does make it easier to go see the shows. Still, I do often have to pick-n-choose the shows that I want to see, especially the ones during the week.

 

[Exploding Ned]

I guess to me, that is just simple human nature. Are you more likely to go out of your way to help/support somebody whom you've become friends with vs just some regular joe?

Exactly. And BTW, have followed Steve Morse since the Dixie Dreg years... definitely a cool guy and great guitarist.

 

[modernwizardry]

A lot of hardcore/punk labels have pricing similar to this. However, most of those artists don't do the type of touring metal bands do -- they do DIY touring. No buyons, contracts, guarantees, etc. That's why you see a lot more "combined" shows than in the metal scene. That is, if two tours are hitting the same area at the same time, they'll often combine and have a bigger show for the same price. I've seen it happen plenty of times. Even bigger bands jump on shows. I know Converge jumped on a DIY show a few weeks ago after their set on the Mastodon/Dethklok tour to do a surprise set.

Most of those shows are run and funded by the scene, though. The venue in Atlanta that has most of the hardcore/punk shows is actually a warehouse, and a few people live in it. Some metal bands come through there, but it's rarely anyone signed to a label. Just underground bands doing DIY touring. That's a big reason why their albums are cheaper. Also, many of those labels are run by people simply doing it for the love of the music and losing money, but simply doing it because they love the bands they're working with. Now I'm not saying that metal label owners don't love the music...it's just a different ethic. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

They also don't have to deal with finding distribution, since it's just about all through word of mouth. I've found that people in the hardcore/punk scene are more likely to purchase merch than most metalheads I know my age, but a lot of that has to do with there being a "collector's" thing going on. That's why you have people collecting every color of a vinyl, every color of a particular shirt, etc. But all of this contributes to lower cost albums.

Edit: Looking at Asian Man's site, it looks like the have a whole lot of folk-punk artists. Of course those are going to be cheap. Those bands tour in basements, house shows, non-profit centers, etc and are generally anti-everything.

I don't think there is a good reason why one genre of music should have a different price for CDs than another genre of music. As far as ethics, I usually think as punk and metal as similar. Maybe metal bands should be doing more DIY. House and basement shows are fun! Bands that care less about money usually are more fun to see live and if a band is truly great and wants to then they will find a way out of the underground.

 

[Diabolik]

I don't think there is a good reason why one genre of music should have a different price for CDs than another genre of music. As far as ethics, I usually think as punk and metal as similar. Maybe metal bands should be doing more DIY. House and basement shows are fun! Bands that care less about money usually are more fun to see live and if a band is truly great and wants to then they will find a way out of the underground.

I agree....metal bands need take some of the punk DIY ethics. I also blame the fans on this. From being involved in the DIY scene many years ago for a long time....you never say quick money schemes like this new trend of VIP tickets letting you get an autographed poster and a quick meet and greet. At the punk shows almost every time the bands are in the crowd with everyone else or selling thier own merchandise. To ask someone who came out to your show to pay an extra 40 bucks to meet the band for a quick meet and greet.....very sad.

Bands need to realize that fancy lights and backdrops and other stuff for a live show is cool...but it isnt as important as putting on a great fun show. Sure it helps but a greatly played show will prevail over anything. I think the most important part is that bands who do tour a lot need to change up the set list or alter it around each night. So many times I have seen shows where it is almost like they are just going through the motions. Even worse is when a band who comes around every few years or every year and play almost the same set list (Edguy). Change it up. In the case of basement shows....I think that is way to much of a risk for touring acts to even consider. Getting busted can seriously detour the rest of the shows. Here in Chicago there are a zillion small bars that host shows. Most of the time there is zero advertisment for them....just word of mouth. To me this is the job of the local act who is on the bill. They wanted the show....no promote it...flyer and flyer some more. Dont just post on a forum. Also the promoter needs to make sure that people / fans know of this show. So many times I have seen people talk about how they had no clue a show already happened or a band they like played here and they had no clue.

 

[TexasBeth]

At 40 (will be as to this Sunday), my tastes certainly have not softened at all either.

Like others, I do have a job that I need to go to. At least in my case, I don't have any kids to have to deal with, plus having a place like Jaxx that has been hosting a decent amount of the types of acts that I want to see, relatively nearby does make it easier to go see the shows. Still, I do often have to pick-n-choose the shows that I want to see, especially the ones during the week.

40 in March and my tastes haven't softened at all. I think they've become more sophisticated in what I'm listening for- but softening? no way.

In following this forum I've kind of thought about this more over the past few days- some of what bugs me when I buy a CD is filler songs, especially OBVIOUS ones. Most bands have enough songs written for 2-5 cds- doesn't mean it's all cd-worthy stuff but I'd rather have 11 quality songs than 13 with two apparent filler songs that were kind of afterthoughts in the process to beef up the time and song count on the CD. Some bands may deny the "filler song" but I kinda beg to differ. OP's cd doesn't have a filler on it and I love that I can plug in the disc and listen to it start to finish with quality music all the way through.

This may be a personal opinion factor but I'm noting it anyway.

 

[dcowboys311]

I agree....metal bands need take some of the punk DIY ethics. I also blame the fans on this. From being involved in the DIY scene many years ago for a long time....you never say quick money schemes like this new trend of VIP tickets letting you get an autographed poster and a quick meet and greet. At the punk shows almost every time the bands are in the crowd with everyone else or selling thier own merchandise. To ask someone who came out to your show to pay an extra 40 bucks to meet the band for a quick meet and greet.....very sad.

Bands need to realize that fancy lights and backdrops and other stuff for a live show is cool...but it isnt as important as putting on a great fun show. Sure it helps but a greatly played show will prevail over anything. I think the most important part is that bands who do tour a lot need to change up the set list or alter it around each night. So many times I have seen shows where it is almost like they are just going through the motions. Even worse is when a band who comes around every few years or every year and play almost the same set list (Edguy). Change it up. In the case of basement shows....I think that is way to much of a risk for touring acts to even consider. Getting busted can seriously detour the rest of the shows. Here in Chicago there are a zillion small bars that host shows. Most of the time there is zero advertisment for them....just word of mouth. To me this is the job of the local act who is on the bill. They wanted the show....no promote it...flyer and flyer some more. Dont just post on a forum. Also the promoter needs to make sure that people / fans know of this show. So many times I have seen people talk about how they had no clue a show already happened or a band they like played here and they had no clue.

Agreed.

I'm lucky that the local DIY venue has been picking up some cool DIY metal tours lately and that I've been able to get into up and coming death and thrash bands from all across the country.

I've noticed that places with good DIY scenes tend to support bands more, both financially and through time and energy spent promoting.

 

[Pellaz]

As a postscript on the whole "bands hanging out and being your budskis" topic.... Sure, there will be nights when bands can't hang out due to timing/travel/bus-call. Fans understand that and that's fine.
Basically, the worst thing a band can do is diss their fans (or potential fans) deliberately, in person.

 

[SkiBumMSP]

40 in March and my tastes haven't softened at all. I think they've become more sophisticated in what I'm listening for- but softening? no way.

THATs the term I was looking for! My tastes definitely have become more sophisticated as I've gotten older. I loved the old Twister Sisters, Def Leppard, Quiet Riot and the like when I was growing up, but now I find a lot of that pretty "childish" sounding now-a-days and prefer something with a bit more sophistication such as Thought Chamber or Darkwater, and yes even Future's End. That is one reason why I am excited to also see The Element and Eumeria on the Power Cruise. But on the flip side, I still love and listen to Pink Floyd, Asia, Styx, Yes and the like even to this day (bands that I've also grew up listening to as a kid). I guess that is also why I never could get into any of that "-core" stuff. I just find it too annoying.

 

[lady_space]

40 in March and my tastes haven't softened at all. I think they've become more sophisticated in what I'm listening for- but softening? no way.

In following this forum I've kind of thought about this more over the past few days- some of what bugs me when I buy a CD is filler songs, especially OBVIOUS ones. Most bands have enough songs written for 2-5 cds- doesn't mean it's all cd-worthy stuff but I'd rather have 11 quality songs than 13 with two apparent filler songs that were kind of afterthoughts in the process to beef up the time and song count on the CD. Some bands may deny the "filler song" but I kinda beg to differ. OP's cd doesn't have a filler on it and I love that I can plug in the disc and listen to it start to finish with quality music all the way through.

This may be a personal opinion factor but I'm noting it anyway.

I guess mine have "softened" insofar as I don't listen to thrash like I did when I was 20 and younger, but I still listen to many of the same bands as I did then: Queensryche, DT, FW--my tastes have simply moved more into that direction. I also listen to more "classic" rock, and of course there is always Marillion who couldn't be called "metal" by the most hearing-impaired.

But anyway... the real reason I quoted this is to comment on the "filler" bit. I couldn't agree more, but the thought struck me: how much is that because bands have schedules and deadlines and so either rush songs into recording that aren't finished yet, or rush through recording them? Any bands who would care to comment, I would love to hear if that's happened to you.

I know one particular person I've discussed their CDs with, songs that sounded to me like "filler" were to some extent a victim of those 2 situations. Another thing I was told: bands tend to put their strongest songs at the beginning, so I am not surprised that I often like 5-6 songs and then there's a drop-off. I can't say it's a bad idea, but I'm not entirely sure it's a good one, either. lol

Like you and a few others who've mentioned, it seems like there is often at least a couple of "filler" tracks on CDs. I do want to hear a solid disc all the way through. Also, hooks = good. Seriously, though, the more I find myself singing along with something, the more it seems I pull it out. I'm betting there are more than a few here who would say the same.

Shaye

 

[FuturesEnd]

I guess mine have "softened" insofar as I don't listen to thrash like I did when I was 20 and younger, but I still listen to many of the same bands as I did then: Queensryche, DT, FW--my tastes have simply moved more into that direction. I also listen to more "classic" rock, and of course there is always Marillion who couldn't be called "metal" by the most hearing-impaired.

But anyway... the real reason I quoted this is to comment on the "filler" bit. I couldn't agree more, but the thought struck me: how much is that because bands have schedules and deadlines and so either rush songs into recording that aren't finished yet, or rush through recording them? Any bands who would care to comment, I would love to hear if that's happened to you.

I know one particular person I've discussed their CDs with, songs that sounded to me like "filler" were to some extent a victim of those 2 situations. Another thing I was told: bands tend to put their strongest songs at the beginning, so I am not surprised that I often like 5-6 songs and then there's a drop-off. I can't say it's a bad idea, but I'm not entirely sure it's a good one, either. lol

Like you and a few others who've mentioned, it seems like there is often at least a couple of "filler" tracks on CDs. I do want to hear a solid disc all the way through. Also, hooks = good. Seriously, though, the more I find myself singing along with something, the more it seems I pull it out. I'm betting there are more than a few here who would say the same.

Shaye

Collectively, we all of us in the band agree on the filler track thing. We spent two years writing Memoirs of a Broken Man because we wanted to give each song the same amount of attention to detail and quality. To speak to the 'pressure to rush the album out' thing, we did find ourselves under the gun to get the record mixed and mastered by Progpower and to hit our October release date deadline, but those deadlines were not imposed by Nightmare Records. That was a schedule that we had given ourselves and as a result we locked down and worked even harder to make it happen. It is one of the greatest things about working with Lance King and Nightmare - we can take our time to deliver the next album without any worry that we are going to be asked to write certain kinds of songs for commercial purposes, or feel any pressure from them to deliver a record at a certain time. Granted, I dont think it will take us two years to write the next one as we have hit a stride and a comfort level with the process and provided that we write a killer record, its pretty likely that Nightmare will be happy to release it for us. I point this out because I started the thread by saying that some of the smaller labels cannot afford to provide tour support. The flip side is that we own our masters, our publishing, and are not pressured to write anything or to deliver anything that we aren't 100% committed to. It is a trade off that we are very happy about.

 

[lady_space]

The flip side is that we own our masters, our publishing, and are not pressured to write anything or to deliver anything that we aren't 100% committed to. It is a trade off that we are very happy about.

That is awesome... I think most bands have no idea how much they can potentially be screwed by signing away their rights and agreeing to deals that sound awesome but aren't. :/

Although I snipped the beginning of your post, that's not to say I didn't read it and find it interesting! (I most certainly did.) And to be honest, though this thread in all practicality ultimately has no bearing on how your music actually sounds to me, I am now probably going to listen to more stuff and give it more of a chance. I guess it's the online equivalent of having a beer with me! lol

 

[modernwizardry]

I know one particular person I've discussed their CDs with, songs that sounded to me like "filler" were to some extent a victim of those 2 situations. Another thing I was told: bands tend to put their strongest songs at the beginning, so I am not surprised that I often like 5-6 songs and then there's a drop-off. I can't say it's a bad idea, but I'm not entirely sure it's a good one, either. lol


Shaye

This is a huge problem.

Think about most of the great rock/metal/prog albums of the 70s and 80s. They usually had 5-8 songs and there was rarely filler. Most CD albums that are released today have 10-13 songs. Sure there are the extraordinary artists who can push the limits, but maybe some bands are spreading themselves thin.

 

[Wyvern]

I actually won't buy the latest Tool CD just for this reason. It it won't sit in my CD rack the way a CD should, I won't buy it. And yes... I know how disturbed that sounds.

Zod

Not that disturbing actually. I had made custom shelves for my CDs with the dimensions of a standard jewel case. So I hate when the CDs came in DVD size cases (special editions). I love jewel cases, so easy to replace if they gor broken and I hate digipacks for the reverse reason (hell to fix if the center breaks).

I don't need a pop-up (like Helloween RDCE) or tridimensional hologram (like Steve Vai "Elusive Light & Sound 1"), it is nice but absolutely unnecessary.

 

[FuturesEnd]

It looks like this thread is winding down and I wanted to take a second to thank everyone for all of the input. Believe me, it was all exactly what we needed to hear. We are listening, and have some ideas for how we are going to proceed in terms of CD content, pricing, touring, and everything else that was discussed here. THank you all again! It makes a huge difference!

Christian Wentz
Futures End Cheese Grater

 

[MEGALOUD]

What do I want from labels?

A full length album for $10 or less. The indie punk label Asian Man Records sells pretty much all CDs/Vinyl for $8/$10 shipped. If they can do it, I expect others to as well. If you can't, maybe you are spending too much money on something.

.

I'm assuming your speaking about a label that is ONLY selling direct from their own website? I certainly could do that, the problem with this as I've stated is that I also want the album available on every other website and in every other store possible in order for people to see it, find it, buy it etc. You simply can't offer that kind of pricing on your website, and sell it to other vendors have have anyone make any money except the label on their website. So what happens is, no other shops or sights will help you, then need to make something and unfortunately retail tends to make a lot more in a lot of cases than any other entity in the food chain.

So maybe I need to just release titles on my site, and only promote my site
perhaps this is the way things will need to go in the future I don't know. Thoughts?

 

[modernwizardry]

I'm assuming your speaking about a label that is ONLY selling direct from their own website? I certainly could do that, the problem with this as I've stated is that I also want the album available on every other website and in every other store possible in order for people to see it, find it, buy it etc. You simply can't offer that kind of pricing on your website, and sell it to other vendors have have anyone make any money except the label on their website. So what happens is, no other shops or sights will help you, then need to make something and unfortunately retail tends to make a lot more in a lot of cases than any other entity in the food chain.

So maybe I need to just release titles on my site, and only promote my site
perhaps this is the way things will need to go in the future I don't know. Thoughts?

Their releases are available on other online music stores (interpunk.com or smartpunk.com) with a slight mark up.

I prefer buying direct from the label or band because I know the money I'm spending is going directly to those people who are running the label or making the music. I find great satisfaction and comfort from doing this.

It's great to have super amazing distribution, but the bottom line is that people who want to find a band's CD will. Anyone can find pretty much any CD on Amazon.com used or new for a reasonable price.

For a label that has such a history, people will look to you automatically for your new band's releases. There is so much free word of mouth advertising on the internet with blogs, myspaces, and twitters that one does not need to spend much money on getting the message out. The other great thing about this kind of marketing is that you are connecting directly with your fanbase.

 

[SkiBumMSP]

So maybe I need to just release titles on my site, and only promote my site
perhaps this is the way things will need to go in the future I don't know. Thoughts?

Do you think you may get additional sales to make up for the loss of letting them out to other outlets? How much returns are you getting from, say Amazon.com? Do you think you could make it up from your site only?

I'd love to see lower prices myself, but at the same time, I rather that you not undercut yourself and risk destroying your business in the process.

 

[LunaTEKKE]

YES also to LESS stuff in the package, this makes way more sense than MORE stuff in the package in the beginning, more stuff in the package would make more sense when a solid fan base is secured for new bands and the band or label could print up a limited amount and be guaranteed these would blow out at a set but reasonable price.

I might be in the minority here, but I like to at least see band photos and lyrics in the packaging. Although making that available on the band's web site would be an alternative.

*Super* fancy packaging is totally lost on me. I don't know the proper terminology for those cardboard sleeves that fit *over* the CD and have the same album art, but they always end up in my trash can.

As a postscript on the whole "bands hanging out and being your budskis" topic.... Sure, there will be nights when bands can't hang out due to timing/travel/bus-call. Fans understand that and that's fine.
Basically, the worst thing a band can do is diss their fans (or potential fans) deliberately, in person.

Personally, I don't think the "budski" thing will make a huge difference in terms of CD sales...but I *do* think that fans will make more of an effort to travel to a show if the band members are willing to make themselves available. Look at what TSO does with the Meet & Greet after most shows...I know people who will travel to multiple cities just to see a particular band member, because they have forged a connection.

 

[SkiBumMSP]

*Super* fancy packaging is totally lost on me. I don't know the proper terminology for those cardboard sleeves that fit *over* the CD and have the same album art, but they always end up in my trash can.

You mean slipcases? I still kept all of mine - guess I like to try to keep my CDs as pristine and complete as possible, including all the inserts and so forth.

I see what you mean. A nice, fancy, package is cool, but in the end, it is the music that I am most interested in. At the very minimum, when it comes to packaging, I do like to see a photo of the band members as well as the complete lyrics. Beyond that, I am not to concerned.

 

[Diamond45]

Look at what TSO does with the Meet & Greet after most shows...I know people who will travel to multiple cities just to see a particular band member, because they have forged a connection.

That's half the reason why Steve and I like to go to TSO. Last year I didn't take anything for them to sign. This time I took the new Night Castle CD with me and the entire band signed it.

Also asked Chris Caffery if he plans to go on tour next year. He said no, but he said that TSO might go on tour just to promote Night Castle (sans the Christmas part of the show). That would be interesting if this happens.

As for CD "covers" - I agree, what a waste. The Night Castle album has two of them. Ugh. Also, I prefer a jewel box over a digipack anyday.