What do music fans want from the bands? The Labels? The Promoters? Help us out!

[Yippee38]

I have no idea what this thread is about anymore, as I stopped reading it after it became an argument. However, I've got a couple of comments regarding the OP.

"You guys are pretty good, but you need more practice." (still can't believe somebody actually said that to your face)

I'm not a student of the music business, so I can't offer much "expert advice." However, as a fan I can tell you about the things that really impress me about bands. I can also offer just some general success tips I've learned.

• Have fun live. Obviously, you have to put on a great show first and foremost or any tour is a waste. From what I've heard about you guys (above comment not withstanding), you do put on a great show (which I unfortunately missed ). However, the bands I enjoy watching are the bands that look like they're having fun. You can have a band like Sabaton that is a high energy band that's all over the stage, but you don't need to. If you watch a band like Pagan's Mind, the guitar and bass players don't really move around that much, but they are always smiling and genuinely look like they are having fun.
• Make your shows special in some small way. When I say that, I mean somehow make each show unique. Change up the order of your songs, or throw in a unique cover. I don't know. I've seen bands play PPUSA then on tour a month later and the set is exactly the same. That turns me off.
• Try to make the fans feel special. This is basically the same as what I said in the preceding item. This could be as simple as doing a tour blog on your website and updating it after every single show, and finding something positive to say about each show. Make the fans that were there (even if it was just a handful) feel like you appreciate them coming out.
• Great t-shirts are a good idea. If I see a band and I thought they were just okay, but they have a really cool t-shirt, I may buy the t-shirt anyway. Free advertising.
• Meet and greet the fans as others have said. It makes people say, "I saw Future's End last night and they kicked ass, PLUS they were really cool guys." Hell, it might even get you some free beers.
• You guys are fans of music too. Think about what makes you come away from a disc or show thinking, "Wow! That was great!"
• Ask for what you want. Ask everybody you meet if they've checked out your band. I mean everybody. Have cards with your mySpace page on it so they can check out samples if they are interested. The card should also indicate where they can buy a CD. People may pirate your stuff, but the more people who know about your band, the more who are likely to buy an album or pay for a ticket. It's a numbers game. Never forget that.
• Learn how to make the most of social networking. Find a book on it by some expert. Go to a seminar or something. Use it to your best advantage. NEVER spam though! Ugh! That is annoying.
• Make sure people can find information on what is going on with the band right now. In other words, make sure you mySpace and your web site have up to date news, ALWAYS.

 

[lady_space]

When I say for example, that touring is a guarantee for success, I don't mean it in strict mathematical terms.

There may be a reason that people are "misunderstanding" you and "arguing semantics"--apparently, you're not saying what you mean. Guarantee = guarantee. If you don't mean guarantee, then don't use that word.

Anyway, this has gotten far afield of the original topic, and I'm tired of arguing. I think you're wrong, you don't, period.

 

[Taliwakker]

I'll blind buy a new band that sounds promising, without hearing any actual music, if the price is right.

Taliesin sound promising

$8 US (including shipping)

I'll send you our paypal address if you like?

 

[General Zod]

Dude, no offense but I have no idea what you're talking about. Novembers Doom has/had a booking agency (First Row Talent) and was supposed to do the Rotting Christ tour and dropped off, for I guess health reasons.

None taken. Having a booking agency and getting booked on tours are two completely different things. The Rotting Christ tour would have been one of their first tours, but a medical issue within the band arose. Regardless, those guys have been chomping at the bit to tour forever.

Circus Maximus is from Norway, where the government gives tour support to bands.

I'm not sure how this helps your argument. The point at hand was the necessity of labels. My point with Circus Maximus was, they'll be paying out of their own pockets for years for the privledge of being on this tour. I can't speak to what expenses the label forked over, if any.

Pretty much every semi-major or major "headliner" metal band. Some of these bands will do part time, non music-related jobs to make some extra money, but they are never forced to do it or starve because they aren't making enough on the road.

You keep alluding to this large number of Metal bands who are able to generate enough money from their music that they can support themselves. Who are these bands? Nightwish, In Flames, who else?

MOST of the bands in this prog/power scene don't tour at all, so duh, of course they have day jobs.

Why do you think these bands don't tour? Because they don't want to or because no one would show up if they did?

Zod

 

[J-Man]

You keep alluding to this large number of Metal bands who are able to generate enough money from their music that they can support themselves. Who are these bands? Nightwish, In Flames, who else?

You know ZOD you have a good point here, yes the members of Nightwish probably do make enough from touring, album sales aned Merch to just kick back and do nothing, but each and every one of them do something on the side, ie Jukka owns EMI distributing, Emppu is co-owner of E-Major studios, so even the successful bands see a need to supplement what they make from music. So, AeonicSlumber's post, though true in content, does not necessarily reflect what goes on that we as the fans don't see, or just flat don't know. This is not a slam against anyone, just stating what I know about one band in particular. This has really been some good reading, seems everyone has great ideas of how to make things better for all concerned, and that a lot of thought has gone into your posts, especially yours Brian, and Shaye's. I always love reading what you two write. AeonicSlumber you too make some very valid points and i think a lot of thought went into yours also. We all have our ideas and opinions as to what will work, and it is good to see them here in a public forum.

 

[MEGALOUD]

Great post Christian, yes I'm reading it all....

For those that want to try before they buy...
with the new Nightmare website, we added 2 minute streaming samples of ALL SONGS on our label releases, and our distributed titles.

For those that want to get an album under $10 we added downloads to every well known download pay download store, and to the Nightmare site where you can now find download DMR FREE albums from $2.99-$7.77


CD's are more expensive because...

>costs of pressing up CD's with 16 page color inserts for smaller first runs of 1000-2500 CD's are quite expensive when your wholesale return from Amazon and SPV (Rip) and Koch are between $4.50- $7.

>We are mainly a label / distributor, we don't want to compete with all the other stores and distributors that are helping us get the music out there, so we have to charge more than them, but the better an album sells, the more product we make and put into the market the lower the price automatically self adjusts with competition of more people selling it things get cheaper.
(probably why you can get the latest Dream Theater CD now for $6-$7 on Amazon.)


Wish more people were going out to club shows and supporting metal tours, would certainly help bands to tour if more people were supporting live music. I think we've exhausted all the normal ones several times over and had not much luck.

Any ideas on how to get more people out to these for us, and promoter friends would I'm sure be appreciated!

 

[Yippee38]

Any ideas on how to get more people out to these for us, and promoter friends would I'm sure be appreciated!

Fix the economy?

 

[TribunalRecords]

You know ZOD you have a good point here, yes the members of Nightwish probably do make enough from touring, album sales aned Merch to just kick back and do nothing, but each and every one of them do something on the side, ie Jukka owns EMI distributing, Emppu is co-owner of E-Major studios, so even the successful bands see a need to supplement what they make from music. So, AeonicSlumber's post, though true in content, does not necessarily reflect what goes on that we as the fans don't see, or just flat don't know. This is not a slam against anyone, just stating what I know about one band in particular. This has really been some good reading, seems everyone has great ideas of how to make things better for all concerned, and that a lot of thought has gone into your posts, especially yours Brian, and Shaye's. I always love reading what you two write. AeonicSlumber you too make some very valid points and i think a lot of thought went into yours also. We all have our ideas and opinions as to what will work, and it is good to see them here in a public forum.

EMI as in the record label? would seem like it would be hard for him to own that company.

 

[Stingray11214]

We live in a world where American Idol is most people's idea of music. Any correlation that exists quality and success is purely coincidental.

Zod

That is why American Idol named a comedian as a judge. People are seeing through AI at this point.

What it comes down to is CHOICE. There is much out there, unlike years ago. For a band to be competitive they need to A) Make a solid CD without BS songs thrown in, and B)Sell it at a price point where you are looking long term. Few will pay $16 for one good song an 12 turds. However, they will pay $10-12 for a 8-9 track CD with solid songs.

 

[SkiBumMSP]

there just needs to be the understanding that music isn't made for free and therefore it HAS a monetary value regardless of what anyone thinks or feels. it HAS a value that people must get back into the habit of paying to enjoy what someone else has created. i would love to walk up to a car dealership and drive off with a brand new car, but we cannot do that unless we want to get arrested.

Fat chance of that happening. Yeah, the general public needs to change their perception so the labels can make money again.

Now, I am not advocating that people should just go and download music as they see fit, but at the same time, I wonder if perhaps that music is now going for what it may actually be worth, vs the inflated prices that the major labels have been charging all those years prior.

This goes back to what I originally said that a band should put out QUALITY music that is actually WORTH BUYING! I am actually glad to finally see many bands and labels now providing decent sample to allow me to listen and get a good idea of what they sound like and if I am willing to drop my coin on it. This used to not be the case and I've only been seeing it become more common within the past few years.

I do agree with what you are saying though. If people truly enjoy what a band produces, then they should pay for the music they obtained from that band.

 

[SkiBumMSP]

A few mentioned hanging with the fans more. Great idea, and many bands do go the extra mile, but give these guys a break. They're exhausted from being on the road, jetlag, whatever, and you require them to be your budski so you'll buy their CDs and support them etc.? Someone even suggested the band should hand write a thank you note in the package with the CD the person ordered from them. C'mon guys, I would never look at who I support being dependent upon that, or anything for that matter - besides the fact that I liked their music. Just saying.

This is obviously a reply to a comment that I made.

No, I do not require them to be my "budski" to gain my support. I just find I gain a lot more respect for those bands that are willing to go that extra mile and make a personal connection with their fans. As a result, I am much more likely to go out of my way to go see their shows and buy their new albums, than some band that just gets up there and then blows off without even so much as a "thanks for coming". Also, the whole "they are exhausted" bit does not completely fly with me. Time and again, I've seen a number of these bands are actually quite glad to take the hour or two to just relax after the show and to simply get to shoot the shit with the fans and perhaps even share a drink or two before having to hit the road to make their next stop.

The only thing that I really require a band to get my support is if they are putting out QUALITY material that I ACTUALLY ENJOY listening to.

 

[Prog_Please]

So I have tried to read most of the comments here, and I'll post some of my own from "MY" perspective. Take them how you want:

1. Along the lines of what was previously said, price of CD is always an issue. Generally I budget 14 dollars for new releases of bands I like. I'll budget 18 dollars for those Opeth / Dream Theater / Katatonia albums. However, if its a new band to me, or a suggestion, I put it on a "list" and find it used. I check amazon / ebay / local stores all the time with list in hand to buy CDs. So price your album accordingly, based on how much you think people want to spend on it (sell for more, make more but less buy, sell for less, more buy, tradeoff, etc etc economics).

2. Go all Tool on your albums. If you want people to BUY your CD, make it more than a lame digipack or jewelcase. Make it 3D or have like layered pictures or something new and creative. (referring to Lateralus, 10k Days, and Aenima)

3. I know there are many reasons why you WOULD NOT do this, but I generally only buy shirts at concerts if the tour date is on the shirt.

4. Be available to your fans after / before shows so you can interact with them. I love to get my CDs signed, and I'm probably not the only one.

Hope this helps and good luck.

 

[Soundscape]

a reason to listen:

a) good songwriting or compositions. Stop sounding derivative, and learn how to write a bloody melody or hook.

b) a live show worth spending money to see. At venues that have reasonable sound, and don't get suffocating, especially with a temperature that doesn't require 5 bottles of water and a towel on hand.

c) a belief that effort that's put into street teaming/promoting a band is reciprocated. I.e., name-dropping the bands on said forums, blogs, podcasts, and in-person at shows, record stores/shows, articles, actually makes a difference.

d) the ability for bands who have dayjobs to tour and travel overseas without losing money. I.e., not what just happened to dredg having to cancel their Australian dates with Karnivool. Odds are the promoters down under pulled the plug on dredg when their offer didn't meet what they needed to afford to travel there.

e) distribution of albums from bands outside of the States. Especially Europe. I.e. Oceansize and Pure Reason Revolution are 2 examples where their cds should be in stores or at least online as an AMERICAN RELEASE the day/week/month of the European release.

 

[Pellaz]

I agree with some others on here that one of the best ways to build a fanbase and support is also the cheapest, and maybe the easiest:

Stay connected with your fans.

The "cheap" and "easy" part of this is the online part: keep your website updated, interact with your fans on a forum -- why, I've heard tell that bands can get their very own forum right here on UM! Who knew?
Keep in touch and keep fans informed via social networking. Nowadays, that probably includes more than just a MySpace presence, although it's still the best option for low-cost (or no-cost) online musical promotion.

Interacting with fans -- or potential fans -- at shows is also a must. If you're an opener, play your hearts out, but always show some respect for the headliner and their fans...if you come across as dicks to them, you have just wasted an opportunity to win some of them over. (Classic example...that band who opened for Moonspell recently with Dino Cazares in it.)

Try to make yourselves available to fans before or after your set...it won't always be possible depending on the venue and scheduling, but I speak for many when I say that a band who are cool toward their fans really "cements" that fan-support.

And the best part about the above is that there isn't too much cost involved....except maybe for your time, and if your time is too precious to spend online or chatting with fans after shows, you might be in the wrong business to begin with.

$insert,Paul's_standard_"Metallica_became_less_fan-friendly" rant

 

[Exploding Ned]

This is obviously a reply to a comment that I made. No, I do not require them to be my "budski" to gain my support. I just find I gain a lot more respect for those bands that are willing to go that extra mile and make a personal connection with their fans. As a result, I am much more likely to go out of my way to go see their shows and buy their new albums, than some band that just gets up there and then blows off without even so much as a "thanks for coming". Also, the whole "they are exhausted" bit does not completely fly with me. Time and again, I've seen a number of these bands are actually quite glad to take the hour or two to just relax after the show and to simply get to shoot the shit with the fans and perhaps even share a drink or two before having to hit the road to make their next stop. The only thing that I really require a band to get my support is if they are putting out QUALITY material that I ACTUALLY ENJOY listening to.

Skibum I think we agree in principle, esp. on the point that you above all look for quality bands first... but you may wish to consider the concept that you do in fact require them to hang with you etc., to take your appreciation of them to the next level. As for them being exhausted after shows etc., I didn't mean that happens all the time, but it does happen alot. The road is no easy task so to speak. But yeah, there are many bands who love to chill out with fans and have a few drinks after the gig.

 

[Exploding Ned]

I am actually glad to finally see many bands and labels now providing decent sample to allow me to listen and get a good idea of what they sound like and if I am willing to drop my coin on it. This used to not be the case and I've only been seeing it become more common within the past few years.

Actually, even before the internet, labels were giving away (or selling cheap) samplers of at least their up and coming bands... (I still have Century Media, Sensory etc. label samplers from 10-15 years ago) and even when there were no CDs, vinyl label samplers were around, at least at the cool used/indy record shops. But yeah, now is the best time to check out new music, with nearly all bands and/or labels putting album track samples online, or samples available on Amazon etc.

 

[Exploding Ned]

If you want people to BUY your CD, make it more than a lame digipack or jewelcase. Make it 3D or have like layered pictures or something new and creative.

Cool. Your avatar even looks 3D

 

[TexasBeth]

Great thread Christian- really blew up! After following along I offer a few points-

As a regional booking agent (and promoter, and manager of acts) I've worked multiple angles of this argument. Guarantees are deserved by many acts and anyone like me who is trying to bring quality metal to their area is either going to back this personally as a promoter or have to fight the venue/club tooth and nail to get as close to those numbers as possible. Tours cancel because those numbers just don't always add up.

I've invested in many a show and in a few bands and both made and lost money. I've also worked for free. I'm not doing this to get rich *lol* nor am I independently wealthy so if I don't lose my ass at the end of the day it's a score.

There aren't 800 people coming to these shows as was pointed out in a post, hell, most clubs don't even hold that many anyway. It's a great thing if half that come out. Bands are not making anywhere close to 5k a night even with 100% of their merch sales. The Tyr/Suidakra/Alestorm show here in Houston drew about 125 people which utterly blew my mind in the worst way. I go to shows and wonder "where is everyone?"

As Lance pointed out it'd be quite nice to see more folks getting out to support these touring acts and their local up n comers as well as national fests. I know you all aren't made of money and the economy does suck- the same goes for the bands who do suck it up to go out and try to make that impression on a DIY tour. It's not easy on any side of the cube and each is dependent on the other.

I'm seeing trib and cover bands (nothing against them at all) earning double, triple and much more what an all-original band could hope to earn. I love going to see Mindcrime (et al) and am fortunate to get to see them somewhat frequently since they are local to me but I make a point to go to original shows as well. I'm a big supporter of rising bands getting heard.

Some clubs, many with strong built-in crowds won't even book original acts. They say it's what the folks want at their venues. It's frustrating as hell. I've managed to convince at least one club owner to allow in some original acts while having to ask these bands to mix in more cover tunes just to get that shot.

Anyway- I offer no quick-fix solutions except to say as music lovers we're all in it together. Sorry for the length, I could write and write and write.

 

[General Zod]

2. Go all Tool on your albums. If you want people to BUY your CD, make it more than a lame digipack or jewelcase. Make it 3D or have like layered pictures or something new and creative. (referring to Lateralus, 10k Days, and Aenima)

I actually won't buy the latest Tool CD just for this reason. It it won't sit in my CD rack the way a CD should, I won't buy it. And yes... I know how disturbed that sounds.

Zod

 

[J-Man]

EMI as in the record label? would seem like it would be hard for him to own that company.

I did have the initials wrong It's EMP Mercandising out of Germany, Jukka doesn't own it, sorry for that statement, he is a majority shareholder and director.