What do music fans want from the bands? The Labels? The Promoters? Help us out!

[halcyonwayband@aol.com]

Hey Christian - GREAT post bro. This is really good stuff. We're gonna make Lance use your ideas for us, hahahah!

On the tour thing. Let me give you guys a very real and firsthand example of this - our producer, Lasse Lammert, also has done the last few Alestorm records. He told me a year ago that they would be in the ATL this past February and that we should go check them out. I said "check them out nothing, help get us on the bill with them!" So 2 days later I've got the tour's booking agent on the phone thanks to Lasse. I asked if HW could do the ATL show, which happened to be the first night of the show, as well as 3-4 other Southeastern dates right after that. He told me that he couldn't add us to part of the tour like that, but he could offer us the ENTIRE tour. This was the tour with TYR & Suidraka as well. It was something like 32 days, 30 shows.

Needless to say, we were beyond stoked and started working on the numbers. I personally went back & forth with the booking agent for a week or two and we finally worked it out. Best case scenario, we were going to lose about $8,000 as a band over the course of the tour; worst case about $15,000.

We were willing to do this - it would have been a hardship on all of us, because we all work day jobs and so forth, but we were gonna stick our necks out on it, and Lance was willing to as well. Long story short, this was being negotiated about the time the economy really took a long, smelly dump last year, and there ended up not being a 4th band at all on the tour, so it didn't work out. We were at the point of signing contracts on it, and the booking agent told us that the bands didn't want the 4th band on there.

That was for a mid-tier tour with 4 bands on the bill, and I believe it drew about 300 people per night on average if what I heard was correct. So at worst case, we're paying something like $20/per person we play to on that tour. The reason was that not only was there a buy-in for the tour - funds from which go to fund the headliner's guarantees & expenses - but you also had to cover the bus rental, fuel, driver, etc. We would have gotten a small per-diem for the whole band for food & incidentals, but it was definitely not enough for all of us to survive on.

Your Suffocations, Vaders, Moonspells, etc.....those guys are NOT commanding $5000 per show. $500, maybe. $5000, not a chance in hell unless maybe Vader's in their hometown in Poland or something. There are bands that are much bigger than them that don't command that kind of money. I can think of a couple here in Atlanta on major labels that sell a lot of CDs that don't get that, even for a 1-off show in their hometown where they're guaranteed a huge turnout.

If a band at our level goes out on a regional tour - if we can get booked with a local act that is known in the area - we might expect to make $150 a night or something, before travel expenses & merch. You may sell a lot of merch....but a run of nice T-shirts is $500. You have to sell a LOT to just cover the upfront expenses. It's really a perpetually money-losing proposition.

So....the moral of the story, as an artist, is that it is absolutely essential for the fans to support the bands by buying the merch at the shows. You have the CD already? Buy it for a friend, you're helping us pay for gas to get to the next town or to buy a pack of strings. Tell your friends about the bands you dig, drag them to the shows with you. Be vocal about the guys you dig, word of mouth is a huge thing for bands in our scene. Talk about the bands on the forum - good press begets good press. You dig HW? Tell the world. Please!

As a fan, I want bands to have decent merch, reasonably priced, and to put out good CDs. Keep in touch with the fans. We use Constant Contact for our email list in HW, we don't spam but we want to stay visible.

I'll give another example. I'm a HUGE fan of Electric Six. They're the most un-metal band ever, but I freaking love them. This is front of consciousness because I just got back from seeing them at The Earl in ATL tonight with Big Mike. They just put out a new album, and I had no idea it was coming out. I stumbled across the news of it somewhere, somehow, totally on accident. So I buy it without hearing it because I'm a fan, and between Mike & I tonight we spent $24 on tix and $30 on shirts, plus $30 on the CDs that we already had. I think I have 4 E6 shirts, I get one every show. I've got vinyl just because it looks cool. I've got the obscure demo CD. Etc. But guess what? I almost missed the show tonight, and that's lost revenue for these guys if we did. Stay in front of your fans is the moral here. Forums are cool, but not everyone is on there.

It's tough.....music is VERY hard to monetize, and anyone like, say, a Lance King that can make a living from it deserves props & respect.

 

[lady_space]

small fanbase? i am not sure if you bought the limited edition of their latest two albums, but i have the version with the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of fans who pre-ordered and had their names in the liner notes. there are pages and pages of names in tiny print. not arguing at all, mind you.

they have tons of fans, myself being one.

They sell roughly 150K records, from my understanding. I'd call that "relatively" small. I think the pre-orders have been somewhere on the order of 8-12K fans (and yes, not only do I have them, but my name is listed in those deluxe editions ). But they said some time ago that if they had not done that, and been successful, they as a band may very well have had to call it quits. Obviously, I'm glad they didn't.

Oh, and thanks for the bands' points of you to you and Jon. Believe it or not, I've only ever dated 2 guys in actual bands , and both are very different situations. I think a lot of people (on this forum and elsewhere) have a very unrealistic idea of how many albums most of these bands sell, as well as how much money is made off live shows apparently (and I don't know much either), so it's nice to see some people with knowledge from experience chime in.

(Realizing I totally skirted the actual topic...) As for what I want as a fan... that's tough to say. I *do* want to see bands live, but I can't afford to go to every show that comes through by any stretch. I think offering music as downloadable is an inevitability, even though I like to have the physical CD myself. Let's face it, most bands don't get a lot of label promotion anyway, so what have they got to lose by doing it themselves, and well, labels are already offering stuff digitally for their reasons. I've said it before and I will say it again: the industry missed an opportunity to shake things up and get with the program back in the Napster days.

Shaye the Insomniac

 

[Exploding Ned]

Specifically referring to you guys, Futures End the band, seems to me YOU are doing everything right. You and Lance have put together a great album, and I am very thankful to have a great album to market to my customers. I wish you all the success in the world, and hats off to Lance for what he's done on his end.

Some bogus, but many good ideas on this thread. As for lower CD prices, some things you can be a cheapskate on (food, internet provider etc.), but being a cheapskate on buying a CD by a great band won't work. And how can someone say they're "taking a chance" when that band almost always has at least 3 tracks from their new album on their Myspace page? Please.

A few mentioned hanging with the fans more. Great idea, and many bands do go the extra mile, but give these guys a break. They're exhausted from being on the road, jetlag, whatever, and you require them to be your budski so you'll buy their CDs and support them etc.? Someone even suggested the band should hand write a thank you note in the package with the CD the person ordered from them. C'mon guys, I would never look at who I support being dependent upon that, or anything for that matter - besides the fact that I liked their music. Just saying.

Yes, for chrissakes tour. But if that puts the band into bankruptcy, then no, do not tour. Bankruptcy kills the band. Yes, they have to lose money at first, probably for a couple years, but there is a point when it just makes no sense to keep losing money. A person shouldn't have to lose money to do something they like to do. That should not be the rule.

Promoters. There are plenty of great promoters, but sadly way too many wanna be promoters who are nothing but greedy ego heavy jerks (putting it mildly) who (in their mind) do no wrong. That needs to stop. Way too many bands losing their rear end from that b.s. If you suck at promoting, or don't care about anything but your bottom line, do us all a favor and enter another line of work.

Zod had the most good ideas about this subject, not the least of which is the DIY idea. The net profit will always be better if you do it yourself, but at some point, I realize you need outside help. But getting things at least started with the DIY route is a great way to go.

Bottom line, though, is what Matt said... "there just needs to be the understanding that music isn't made for free and therefore it HAS a monetary value regardless of what anyone thinks or feels. it HAS a value that people must get back into the habit of paying to enjoy what someone else has created."

Bad economy or not, people are stealing music and killing bands. Sad but true. Metal can only survive if people buy Futures End's CD and their merch and go to their shows. Simple. Flog and/or degrade your pathetic illegal downloading friends. Just do it. Don't assume that, if they have a CD out, they can afford a little illegal downloading. They can't.

 

[Cheiron]

Why aren't you on Warp Tour, Rockstar Mayhem or something like that? Label isn't paying your guarantee? Find a new label that is interested in actually making money and promoting bands. Get off any label that has a guy who just wants to exploit hundreds of bands, and thinks that he does you service by posting about your releases on every forum he finds and a couple ads on blabbermouth/bravewords and Decibel magazine. That's better than nothing, but its not enough. It never has been. If you aren't getting bought onto tours, you aren't on a good label. If they aren't paying for you to go to European festivals, and making sure your music is submitted to all of them, following up, etc., you aren't on the right label.

Get on every tour you can. And when you play, know you'll play on shitty equipment, and be able to shine through it. Don't have any lazy members. Don't have whiners. Tour cheap and play every night even if its to 10 people. When you can't tour, play at every local bar as a coverband. Always have CDs on hand. You'll see more these days from the impulse buyer, than from the person who has been facebook/myspace/forum spammed to death. Make sure you don't get ripped off while on tour, that includes from promoters, and having your shit stolen. Don't travel in a shitty van/bus. If you are finding the cheapest, expect it to break down. Label isn't fronting this? What good are they for? Have a backup plan. Secure your shit. Secure your shit. Secure your shit. Have the best looking t-shirts and merch on the tour. Hang out at your merch booth before and after your show, at least until you have too many annoying fanboys/girls, then you get to start hiding and being mysterious. Get a street team. Make sure they promote your shows. Use it to find places to sleep if you can't afford a tour bus or a Super 8.

Be comfortable living on 20-25k a year, and don't ever have a child.

Make sure that every song on your album stands out and is exceptional. No throwaways, no fillers. Be unique.

Be active in your online communities. Record demos, release for free live tracks that have a rough mix. Make sure your Web site is regularly updated and that people always know what you are working on a new tour, writing lyrics and riffs for a new album, etc. If people for a moment think you are dead, you are.

 

[General Zod]

Well Zod, the thing is there are alot of reasons why a band should still choose a label as opposed to going COMPLETELY DIY. Some reasons are obvious. For example, Bob might have a cool record, but how is he really going to reach out to new fans and promote the record? A good label has money and contacts that Bob does not have and this could be beneficial for Bob depending on what he wants with his band.

The label may have those contacts. Many of the smaller labels don't. Obviously, each situation is unique. Outside of Metal Blade and Century Media, how many labels have actually taken artists to a point where they don't have to work and can do music full time? For that matter, how many artists have CM and MB done that for? And conversely, how many artists are in worse financial shape now than when they first signed with CM and MB? And even with the artists who, ten years ago, were able to support themselves, will be able to continue to do so with diminished label support, due to decreasing CD sales, due to MP3 piracy?

This brings me to my main point though. Not only does touring sell records, but if you do it long enough, you get a bigger guarantee to play gigs. Bands like Nightwish and In Flames who have been slugging it on the road for years, now easily collectively make millions of euros per year on touring guarantees alone. In Sweden, In Flames gets like $100,000 just for one gig...

Lots of bands tour constantly and never become financially independent. While bands can attempt to use these occasional success stories as a model for their own success, it's important to remember, these bands are the exceptions. To my mind, it seems smarter to build a model based on the rule, than the exception to the rule.

But this is predicated upon said musician having a good, solid job with plenty of vacation time for touring, that also pays enough to buy said equipment (NOT cheap). I only know from a very limited exposure, obviously, but I wonder how much time most musicians spend actually recording, as well--is that something that can be done around a regular work schedule for most?

Many musicians can't do this... that's true. However, many of those musicians can't do that because they've been pursuing their goals from the perspective of the old model; starving artist > get signed > go on tour > become a millionaire (exaggerated for effect). As we all know, that doesn't happen any more. Regardless, my suggestion was more about what I would do.

Zod

 

[Cheiron]

I agree with you Zod. I'd treat it as a hobby, not as a vocation, and just hope to recuperate costs. But if you want to be 'big' or make enough to live off of without needing a different job, then you need to treat it as a business/job.

 

[Wherewolf]

Where I think Lance deserves the most credit is he signs bands he personally enjoys and has genuine faith in and sticks by his bands! Now that is respectable.

 

[J-Man]

Where I think Lance deserves the most credit is he signs bands he personally enjoys and has genuine faith in and sticks by his bands! Now that is respectable.

How true, and another thing, we do promote the new bands, and all of Nightmare record bands. We spend a shit load of money getting the promos into the right hands all around the world, but still this is not enough, so we are looking at some new ideas.

 

[TribunalRecords]

Why aren't you on Warp Tour, Rockstar Mayhem or something like that? Label isn't paying your guarantee? Find a new label that is interested in actually making money and promoting bands. Get off any label that has a guy who just wants to exploit hundreds of bands, and thinks that he does you service by posting about your releases on every forum he finds and a couple ads on blabbermouth/bravewords and Decibel magazine. That's better than nothing, but its not enough. It never has been. If you aren't getting bought onto tours, you aren't on a good label. If they aren't paying for you to go to European festivals, and making sure your music is submitted to all of them, following up, etc., you aren't on the right label.

Get on every tour you can. And when you play, know you'll play on shitty equipment, and be able to shine through it. Don't have any lazy members. Don't have whiners. Tour cheap and play every night even if its to 10 people. When you can't tour, play at every local bar as a coverband. Always have CDs on hand. You'll see more these days from the impulse buyer, than from the person who has been facebook/myspace/forum spammed to death. Make sure you don't get ripped off while on tour, that includes from promoters, and having your shit stolen. Don't travel in a shitty van/bus. If you are finding the cheapest, expect it to break down. Label isn't fronting this? What good are they for? Have a backup plan. Secure your shit. Secure your shit. Secure your shit. Have the best looking t-shirts and merch on the tour. Hang out at your merch booth before and after your show, at least until you have too many annoying fanboys/girls, then you get to start hiding and being mysterious. Get a street team. Make sure they promote your shows. Use it to find places to sleep if you can't afford a tour bus or a Super 8.

Be comfortable living on 20-25k a year, and don't ever have a child.

Make sure that every song on your album stands out and is exceptional. No throwaways, no fillers. Be unique.

Be active in your online communities. Record demos, release for free live tracks that have a rough mix. Make sure your Web site is regularly updated and that people always know what you are working on a new tour, writing lyrics and riffs for a new album, etc. If people for a moment think you are dead, you are.

Some of this is good and i agree with you on several points, but the entire first paragraph is kind of "good on paper" but in theory there are plenty of labels most would consider GREAT labels who do not offer tour support in any fashion to some of their bands. Prosthetic Records apparently couldn't help Book Of The Black Earth get from Seattle to Florida for the start of the MOONSPELL tour so they had to drop off. so the label that built Lamb Of God isn't a good label? what's a little gas money to help your band get on tour, right?

the point is that with shrinking record sales most labels are cutting costs where they can and sometimes its tour support for some bands.

some of the bigger bands on Metal Blade like Job For A Cowboy, The Black Dahlia Murder, Unearth, etc already had built a loyal following in the hardcore scene years before being signed, so the groundwork was done so they could easily give them tour support to get out there and further grow their already devout fanbases.

bands cannot just seek out another label, there are hundreds of thousands of bands for labels to pick from. yes, if you stand out you might make it, but sometimes even standing out won't help you get anywhere.

what new bands can afford a tour bus? or hotels every night? buses are usually $800/day.

time to get back to work posting information on all the forums i can find!

 

[Cheiron]

For most bands it doesn't make sense. It depends on the goals of the band (and their quality).

You are right about tour support. If you can't get it from the label, then maybe taking a business loan will work (if you can convince somebody to give you one). But its a tough world. And if you are doing that, and selling the CDs, the label should be giving you a better cut. Labels should no longer be only paying 10-15% of gross profits (most metal labels do better than this these days).

 

[General Zod]

For most bands it doesn't make sense. It depends on the goals of the band (and their quality).

That's the real crime; quality is irrelevant. Novembers Doom has been releasing great CDs for more than a decade and can't get on a tour. Zero Hour's Towers of Avarice was as brilliant a Prog CD as has ever been written. What did it sell, 10K? 30K? 50K copies? Circus Maximus is as good a young Prog Metal band as there is, and the only way they got on the Symphony X tour was by taking loans that they'll be personally paying back for the next five years.

We live in a world where American Idol is most people's idea of music. Any correlation that exists quality and success is purely coincidental.

Zod

 

[TribunalRecords]

We live in a world where American Idol is most people's idea of music. Any correlation that exists quality and success is purely coincidental.

Zod

amen, brother.

 

[lady_space]

Why aren't you on Warp Tour, Rockstar Mayhem or something like that? Label isn't paying your guarantee? Find a new label that is interested in actually making money and promoting bands.

And what labels would those be, pray tell? I sure would like to know, and I know a couple of bands who would, too--some you may have heard of. And honestly, where is the label going to get the money to pay tour support for all these bands? And even if it's in the contract, shit happens, tours get canceled, and what, the band is gonna hire a lawyer? With what money? (Not to mention, you can't get blood from a stone... it's not like these smaller labels are just sitting on gold mines either.)

Be comfortable living on 20-25k a year, and don't ever have a child.

That, my dear, is probably not going to happen for most, even with a cover band. IME, a cover band is doing awesome to make $2K a gig, and those are not common (usually more like $1200-$1500 a night). Of course, this was years ago, so things may have changed. Regardless, you'd probably have to play 3-4 nights a week, almost every week of the year (which ain't gonna happen 99% of the time), for 5 guys to clear $25K in a cover band after taking out just regular (read: cheapskate) touring expenses, at least in the Southeast. And then what time are you left with for your original band?

And about taking out a business loan, well, that's more like a personal loan. And yes, it can be done sometimes, but then how does one pay that back? Especially if one doesn't have a "real" job? The point someone made earlier about you can only lose so much money was dead on. You can't just keep doing it.

And btw, did you know some venues are now demanding a cut of merch sales, on top of everything else? I'm hoping that idea will die a quick death but don't know how widespread it is.

Many musicians can't do this... that's true. However, many of those musicians can't do that because they've been pursuing their goals from the perspective of the old model; starving artist > get signed > go on tour > become a millionaire (exaggerated for effect). As we all know, that doesn't happen any more. Regardless, my suggestion was more about what I would do.

And yet your suggestions have probably made the most sense. I wasn't trying to say it wasn't a good idea, but just not quite as simple as some may take it to be.

Shaye

 

[General Zod]

And yet your suggestions have probably made the most sense. I wasn't trying to say it wasn't a good idea, but just not quite as simple as some may take it to be.

Yeah... nothing ever is.

Zod

 

[Cheiron]

That's the real crime; quality is irrelevant. Novembers Doom has been releasing great CDs for more than a decade and can't get on a tour. Zero Hour's Towers of Avarice was as brilliant a Prog CD as has ever been written. What did it sell, 10K? 30K? 50K copies? Circus Maximus is as good a young Prog Metal band as there is, and the only way they got on the Symphony X tour was by taking loans that they'll be personally paying back for the next five years.

We live in a world where American Idol is most people's idea of music. Any correlation that exists quality and success is purely coincidental.

Zod

There are a lot of things to do with sales that have nothing to do with quality, agreed. But quality helps with developing enough fans to make a tour worth it. Obviously you need to create music within a genre that has a sizeable fan base, or provide enough originality within certain boundaries. But originality is also generally key. A lot of bands fail to provide anything new. Unfortunately, progressive doom, semi-techy prog metal, and AOR metal don't really have a fan base to support a tour. Getting rich on music is so rare its not worth aiming for. But making a career out of it, at least for a few years is doable. If you want a longer career than you either have to get lucky, or work very hard in the industry and learn to market yourself well.


Shaye, there are several metal labels that do it. Just only to a few bands on their label and they usually have to prove something first (or that they feel they can sell their gimmick).

I was speaking about cover bands as a supplement to other work. Playing in a cover band is a lot of work, and pay is only okay. But if you want to play your instrument for a living, its a good side job. Same with doing commissioned work (which is harder to get obviously).

 

[AeonicSlumber]

The label may have those contacts. Many of the smaller labels don't. Obviously, each situation is unique. Outside of Metal Blade and Century Media, how many labels have actually taken artists to a point where they don't have to work and can do music full time? For that matter, how many artists have CM and MB done that for? And conversely, how many artists are in worse financial shape now than when they first signed with CM and MB? And even with the artists who, ten years ago, were able to support themselves, will be able to continue to do so with diminished label support, due to decreasing CD sales, due to MP3 piracy?

Uhh tons, it just depends on the band's ethos and business sense. If your band is on a label that cannot really afford to do much other than drop your record, you gotta take matters into your own hands if you wanna succeed. Get the funds, get a touring vehicle (should pretty much be mandatory for every touring band), make sacrifices and don't depend on getting signed to a $10,000-per-album-tour-support-deal. As for NB and CM... uh also tons. As I said, it depends on what the band does on its own.

Lots of bands tour constantly and never become financially independent. While bands can attempt to use these occasional success stories as a model for their own success, it's important to remember, these bands are the exceptions. To my mind, it seems smarter to build a model based on the rule, than the exception to the rule.

Nope, if you throw down and tour it's pretty much the only guaranteed way to be successful as a metal band (Unless you're Garm or Varg haha). HOWEVER, what nobody in this thread seems to understand nor read, is that I never said this was easy. It's very fucking difficult, BUT, if this is something you truly want to do, do it.

Many musicians can't do this... that's true. However, many of those musicians can't do that because they've been pursuing their goals from the perspective of the old model; starving artist > get signed > go on tour > become a millionaire (exaggerated for effect). As we all know, that doesn't happen any more. Regardless, my suggestion was more about what I would do.

Zod

I think your suggestion definitely has validity, and ultimately it depends on what you want to do as a band. For example, if I ever start making music, I would probably do something along the lines of what you suggested, because I don't ever intend on slugging it out on the road, etc. I'm in college studying to get a different kind of job than music. However there are kids who want to tour and want that kind of "real band" job, and so it really depends on where your head is at and what you want to do with your music.

 

[Matt Crooks]

And btw, did you know some venues are now demanding a cut of merch sales, on top of everything else? I'm hoping that idea will die a quick death but don't know how widespread it is.

Many venues are doing this, and the trend is not decreasing.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Why aren't you on Warp Tour, Rockstar Mayhem or something like that? Label isn't paying your guarantee? Find a new label that is interested in actually making money and promoting bands. Get off any label that has a guy who just wants to exploit hundreds of bands, and thinks that he does you service by posting about your releases on every forum he finds and a couple ads on blabbermouth/bravewords and Decibel magazine. That's better than nothing, but its not enough. It never has been. If you aren't getting bought onto tours, you aren't on a good label. If they aren't paying for you to go to European festivals, and making sure your music is submitted to all of them, following up, etc., you aren't on the right label.

Get on every tour you can. And when you play, know you'll play on shitty equipment, and be able to shine through it. Don't have any lazy members. Don't have whiners. Tour cheap and play every night even if its to 10 people. When you can't tour, play at every local bar as a coverband. Always have CDs on hand. You'll see more these days from the impulse buyer, than from the person who has been facebook/myspace/forum spammed to death. Make sure you don't get ripped off while on tour, that includes from promoters, and having your shit stolen. Don't travel in a shitty van/bus. If you are finding the cheapest, expect it to break down. Label isn't fronting this? What good are they for? Have a backup plan. Secure your shit. Secure your shit. Secure your shit. Have the best looking t-shirts and merch on the tour. Hang out at your merch booth before and after your show, at least until you have too many annoying fanboys/girls, then you get to start hiding and being mysterious. Get a street team. Make sure they promote your shows. Use it to find places to sleep if you can't afford a tour bus or a Super 8.

Be comfortable living on 20-25k a year, and don't ever have a child.

Make sure that every song on your album stands out and is exceptional. No throwaways, no fillers. Be unique.

Be active in your online communities. Record demos, release for free live tracks that have a rough mix. Make sure your Web site is regularly updated and that people always know what you are working on a new tour, writing lyrics and riffs for a new album, etc. If people for a moment think you are dead, you are.

Honestly, I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not but this is actually kind of spot on. If a label isn't doing its job, band needs to suck it up and take matters into its own hands.

 

[eaeolian]

Many venues are doing this, and the trend is not decreasing.

Even more disturbing, I've heard one or two mentions of the headliner on a tour taking a cut of the openers' merch sales. I know it happens for arena tours, but it seems the trend may be moving down to lower levels.

 

[TribunalRecords]

And btw, did you know some venues are now demanding a cut of merch sales, on top of everything else? I'm hoping that idea will die a quick death but don't know how widespread it is.

this has been around for a long time, actually. why do you think merch is so high at arena shows and the like. it's been trickling down for ages and isn't going anywhere. i am pretty sure the bands at PP had to pay a % cut to the venue for their sales. not sure if anyone noticed that the bands merch was being sold by employees of the club. this is a dead giveaway, they are in control of all the money and sales.

we have the merch cut on tour when we played some of the bigger clubs across the nation. it's part of the contract, usually 10%, but sometimes the clubs get greedy...for example the douches at the whisky and i got into a fight as they tried to ADD another 10% for the club's cut which i claimed as bullshit and closed my merch display and only sold CDs (which is not included in the % cut they get) and told the staff and management to go f*ck themselves.

naturally we are no longer welcome there but there comes a point when as a band you have to stand up for yourselves and not be pushed around. we were totally willing to pay out the contracted 10%, but i drew the line at "day of show" crap happening when we showed up

but thankfully since a huge riot happened during a TERROR show no bands of our kind really play there anymore and our fans certainly don't go there.