What makes a great mastering engineer?

That's all great stuff. So with all that in mind... what do you expect when you pay $300, $800, $2000 and maybe $6000 for mastering of the same album? What's the difference between those scenarios and does the price justify the result? What's the difference between the guy at home using his Ozone/TRacks compared to Bob Ludwig with $200 000 speakers?
 
That's all great stuff. So with all that in mind... what do you expect when you pay $300, $800, $2000 and maybe $6000 for mastering of the same album? What's the difference between those scenarios and does the price justify the result? What's the difference between the guy at home using his Ozone/TRacks compared to Bob Ludwig with $200 000 speakers?

The main difference is that guys like Bob Ludwig work with physical systems not software, they work with analogic compressors, equalizers, tapes and that makes the difference I guess.
 
That's all great stuff. So with all that in mind... what do you expect when you pay $300, $800, $2000 and maybe $6000 for mastering of the same album? What's the difference between those scenarios and does the price justify the result? What's the difference between the guy at home using his Ozone/TRacks compared to Bob Ludwig with $200 000 speakers?

I'm surprised Ermz isn't all over this thread! :lol:
Nice discussion by the way Plec.
I guess if I felt my plugs weren't treating the product in the manner I'd like, I'd turn to a mastering engineer. They're obviously more experienced, but most importantly have the outboard gear specifically for the task. There's only so much emulation plugins will do!
 
if i ever do an album and have the budget to go with a mastering engineer, i'd be all over that shit. i personally only "master" my shit at home with plugins out of necessity. it'd send my shit to gomez over doing it here ANY day, i just can't afford to.
 
That's all great stuff. So with all that in mind... what do you expect when you pay $300, $800, $2000 and maybe $6000 for mastering of the same album? What's the difference between those scenarios and does the price justify the result? What's the difference between the guy at home using his Ozone/TRacks compared to Bob Ludwig with $200 000 speakers?

I think that's a matter of subjectivity at that point, and also politics on another level.

Think early White Stripes versus later White Stripes. It sounded as good as they wanted it to when they started off, and the garage scenesters ate it up and it was just fine for them. As soon as there was money and industry politics behind them, the "quality" of the music changed. Now, who gets to make that call?

I think if it sounds good, it IS good, but, honestly, some people can just hear better than others, just like I can make a lay-up in a friendly one-on-one game, but I'd get swatted if I was playing against Ben Wallace, cuz he's a PRO at what he does.

Jamie King masters his own mixes, and they sound pretty good cuz he knows his routine. When he masters other people's mixes, it just sounds, well, amateur and Tracks/Ozone-ish (i'm pretty sure he uses Peak Pro with vbox though, but I digress)


Joey Sturgis knows what he's looking for from his mix to master it, and he's come up with a pretty good routine to make it from multi to 2track really clean by now with a pretty hot RMS and an overall pleasing unclipping sound.

But then start talking about REAL pros who really know what they are listening for, those weird frequencies that need to be there to make a song sound good on radio, on tv, over the PA system in a supermarket, in a movie theater, on a boombox, through ipod headphones, through laptop speakers, over a home Bose system, in a Hummer, in a Sunfire, etc etc etc. That just comes from years of experience and a lot more than a TC Finalizer or a few stock plugins I think.

But again, back to White Stripes, if it can sound like that and capture attention, then maybe all this fancy mumbo jumbo is more self pleasing to those of us involved.

Like, when we hear a song, we hear all the individual parts that are making it sound that way. Analyzing guitar tone, determining how much the drums were sampled, compression and EQ techniques, tracking layers, etc etc, but when we step into an office building, we just walk to our destination without worrying about the height of the ceiling, the building materials, the floorplan, the light fixture layout, yadda yadda yadda like a professional architecht would...

So what is the need for a pro mastering engineer versus someone with a few plugins and the ability to match RMS levels and pleasant EQ levels? Probably not much if all you're doing is releasing your music to the internet masses via MySpace, PureVolume, itunes, torrent sites and communities like this. But if you plan on delivering a commercial product, I think there's some criteria that needs to be met that maybe the average joe in his bedroom studio cannot achieve. As always, you'll have your exceptions to the rule with your prodigy phenomenon artist+producer combos, but I just don't see a band like Metallica ever resorting back to someone of that caliber because it could be cheaper and still sound "about as good".
 
I'm surprised Ermz isn't all over this thread! :lol:

Well Plec is my 'mastering guy', so he's kind of covering it all. There have been a few of these threads before and I'm a bit too lazy to re-write a 1:1 copy of what's been said before.

The only thing I'll add is that I find a lot of mastering engineers will go through the motions, talk the talk, and speak about the merits of mastering. Yet, at the end of the day, when you get that master back, it doesn't actually provide any benefit to your mix.

It's very wise to go into this knowing both sides. If you are a fantastic mix engineer who absolutely wipes the floor with the competition, do you really need someone else's objective input into your product? At times it may be the case, but other times it's just wiser to hang on and maximize/tailor your own product to the final medium. On the flipside, if you are not entirely confident and can benefit from some input, make sure you find the right guy. Everyone works differently and sending the same mix to a plethora of mastering houses is going to bring back a different product. Many times for the same amount of money, or less, you will find someone has done a much better job than someone else.

In my case I mainly want someone to reference the mix in a more optimal environment and add some life and movement with analogue gear. Since the majority of my mixes are done ITB, which I'm quickly growing tired of, I need someone who can add a bit of that different flavor to create a balance. What I DON'T want is someone adding 6dB to 30hz and making the product shit out every system with a sub, I DON'T want someone making it sound 2-dimensional by just cranking one band on the EQ and brickwalling it. I want the ME to understand where the mix is coming from and augment the original vision - NOT try to recreate the product from a stereo stem.

Like I said, I'm very skeptical about the mastering business these days, and yet Plec is still 'my guy' for every project I can involve him on. That should tell you enough.
 
The main difference is that guys like Bob Ludwig work with physical systems not software, they work with analogic compressors, equalizers, tapes and that makes the difference I guess.

I'm surprised Ermz isn't all over this thread! :lol:
Nice discussion by the way Plec.
I guess if I felt my plugs weren't treating the product in the manner I'd like, I'd turn to a mastering engineer. They're obviously more experienced, but most importantly have the outboard gear specifically for the task. There's only so much emulation plugins will do!

When UA released their Precision EQ for their mastering series I found that the curves were pretty much identical to my Millennia NSEQ-2 in solid state mode. So I made a blind test shootout for the UAD forum on a jazz thing with quite a bit of eq on it, matching the curves exactly between the Millennia and UAD Precision EQ. I think there were 60% who clearly prefered the much more analogue sounding.. ehh... digital Precision EQ. The Precision EQ is ~$250 while the Millennia is ~$4000. You KNOW it would've been like 90-10 on that test if it was revealed which was which beforehand. :loco:

Not to mention that a lot of mastering guys use the hardware digital Weiss units for EQ, compression etc.. and I think it was Bob Katz who did a cancellation test between the Weiss digital EQ and Algorithmix plugin EQ which both are phase linear, and they canceled 100%. The Weiss is $5000-6000 while the Algorithmix is $1200 or something.. can't remember but something like that. :err:

Interesting...
 
To put it simply, with a fixed budget for a recording, there's no doubt that I'd much rather spend it on a really good mixer (all of whom have at least some mastering AKA loudness maximizing chops) to do it all, rather than dividing it between a less-spectacular mixer and a separate ME!
 
@chonchball:
Really great points there dude. It's awfully interesting once you start getting the politics of the business involved. Anyone who's doing anything pro knows how much more important politics become as you climb the ladder. At the top it's just diiiiirty!!!

IMHO I think it's important to have a reality check on a lot of the stuff that we as musicians, engineers put ourselves through from time to time. Those minute details that we can bang our heads against the wall over for hours on end will not be noticed by anyone down the line but ourselves. There is always someone who will come in and go "uhm, the kick needs to be a couple db louder", while we've been slaving away trying to decide if a guitar sound needs a 0.3db boost at 3K or not for half a day. And for the most part they will be right. The impartial ear that has a feel about music is very seldom wrong IME. Raising that kick 2db will surely change how the whole mix comes across while the importance of that 0.3db eq thing is lost as soon as you hear the mix on a couple of other systems. Basically, there is usually bigger fish to fry somewhere else in the production no matter what you're working on at the moment.

That's also why I think mastering in itself is still a very important part of the process because you will have someone actually listening to the music more like a normal person would listen to the big picture while at the same time thinking actively about how it will transfer and not get hung up on if that guitar fill should be half a db louder. For the mix engineer or even the band to hear that in an objective way after spending countless hours on it just isn't going to happen.

@Ermz:
Wise words my man! Also the case for me when I try to master something all ITB, it just doesn't have the same vibe. Even though some EQ's and other plugins work great, a lot of getting that extra 10-15% out of it is about gain staging in the analogue domain.

@Metaltastic:
Nothing in the chain is stronger than its weakest link, right? My opinion is that for the most part if something sucks, it can be traced back to some other link in the chain. Basically, a master will suck if a mix sucks. A mix will suck if the recording sucks. A recording will suck if the performance and song sucks. Everything is dependent on each other and if one link is a little weaker it will affect how everything else comes across.

Never move on until you're perfectly happy where you are. :kickass:
 
When UA released their Precision EQ for their mastering series I found that the curves were pretty much identical to my Millennia NSEQ-2 in solid state mode. So I made a blind test shootout for the UAD forum on a jazz thing with quite a bit of eq on it, matching the curves exactly between the Millennia and UAD Precision EQ. I think there were 60% who clearly prefered the much more analogue sounding.. ehh... digital Precision EQ. The Precision EQ is ~$250 while the Millennia is ~$4000. You KNOW it would've been like 90-10 on that test if it was revealed which was which beforehand. :loco:

Ugh, makes me feel slightly less great about the Origin sitting next to me :lol:

FWIW, any decent digital linear phase EQ should be able to cancel with any other one. I wouldn't be surprised if the one from the T-Racks pack would cancel against the Algorithmix.
 
Ugh, makes me feel slightly less great about the Origin sitting next to me :lol:

FWIW, any decent digital linear phase EQ should be able to cancel with any other one. I wouldn't be surprised if the one from the T-Racks pack would cancel against the Algorithmix.

Dude.. the Origin! Sweet piece of gear!!
I borrowed a friends unit when I was recording vocals for the new Neverstore album here. AKG C12, Millennia Origin with tube pre and compression, ADL 1500. The best vocal sound I've ever gotten. Bastard don't want to sell it to me though. :erk:

On PL EQ's, I'm no expert but apparently you can make a phase linear design in more ways than one. Algorithmix Orange and Red are both linear phase but sound different to each other. Waves linear phase EQ sound like **** compared to pretty much all other designs and PSP Neon has an LP mode that sounds good and the PL eq in T-racks sound great too but even though I haven't demoed it enough I think I would put in second place of LP eq's. When you've tried Algorithmix... nothing else will compare. :kickass:
 
Dude.. the Origin! Sweet piece of gear!!
I borrowed a friends unit when I was recording vocals for the new Neverstore album here. AKG C12, Millennia Origin with tube pre and compression, ADL 1500. The best vocal sound I've ever gotten. Bastard don't want to sell it to me though. :erk:

On PL EQ's, I'm no expert but apparently you can make a phase linear design in more ways than one. Algorithmix Orange and Red are both linear phase but sound different to each other. Waves linear phase EQ sound like **** compared to pretty much all other designs and PSP Neon has an LP mode that sounds good and the PL eq in T-racks sound great too but even though I haven't demoed it enough I think I would put in second place of LP eq's. When you've tried Algorithmix... nothing else will compare. :kickass:

Undertanding the differences, being able to hear these differences, and having access to some of this equipment I think also makes for a pretty good mastering engineer :)