When do you say enough is enough to mix revisions?

[AdamWathan]

So I'm mixing this demo for this punk band, tracked it in 2 days at the end of May and I'm still getting complaints about little things that need to be changed, like 12 mixes later. The mix isn't amazing by any means but the performances were pretty lackluster especially drums, and since we had to cram all the tracking into 2 days we were sort of forced to tough it out. I even had them come back mid June to redo some vocal parts... What do you do in a situation like this? I'm pretty happy with the mix considering what I had to work with and that it was my first full band mix I've ever done, but I'm doing this stuff for free for these guys and I just want it to be out the door and finished.

Shitty deal is I can't just say tough luck and that it's as done as it's going to get because I don't need them going around telling other bands in the area not to record with me or anything

Word of advice, don't work for free unless you are doing demos for really good friends that you know just want to help you out when you are trying to build a portfolio. Bands that come in recording for free expecting a totally pro product that look at the situation as a business transaction as if you fucking OWE them something instead of as a favor are a pain in the fucking ass.

Also, anyone notice how fucking tough, rude and disrespectful the quietest guy in the band is when you are talking online or via e-mail? :Smug: Dude would have nothing to say to me in person or over the phone but as soon as he sits down in front of a keyboard he's the toughest dude on the planet.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Fuck free, that was your first mistake.

Second, squash this shit right now. Tell them how it is period, you should have done that from the start.

 

[GarethSE]

keyboard warriors are always lolz man, you can just take solace in the fact that he's one insecure motherfucker and that charles darwin was right
give yourself a pat on the back for being a superior human being

but to the issue at hand
when ive recorded bands for free, it's always been really close friends, and as far as endless mix revisions go, I've never had that problem from other people, I've always been my own worst enemy when it comes to doing more to the mix than usually needs to be done.
But it sounds to me like you just need to lay down your point of view in as friendly a manner as possible.
let them know how many mix iterations you've gotten through, point out that mixes are about compromise between at least 4 different instruments (if not more if there's other layers of synths n shit going on) and that mixing works like a jigsaw puzzle, and tell them that if you were to adjust anything now, it would be like trying to cram extra pieces into an already completed jigsaw puzzle.
Also just point out that this IS a free recording, this IS a free mix, you're doing this in your own time for zero compensation, and that it should be treated more as a really big favour than a business transaction. Try and come to some sort of compromise with them.

And as far as word of mouth goes, don't worry about it, one shitty punk band's word won't last forever, a portfolio of good work does. just be nice and this will all go smoothly man

 

[Ermz]

I'm with Dodo.

The only people I ever worked with for free have been either good friends or mature people, playing mature music that are realistic about their expectations.

If these people are giving you shit, inform them that in order to compensate you for all the added time they can pay $50 per additional revision. Be honest, tell them where the problems lie (in case it's their own performances), also make it clear that you are doing this for free, owe them nothing, and that your time is worth something to you so if they continue to waste it they can start to compensate you for it.

 

[Chryst Krispies]

Best Dodo post ever...

Couldn't say it better.

Keyboard Warriorz!!! Mega Lol.

 

[James Murphy]

i don't much like to comment on this particular type of thread, but here goes anyway... Adam, don't worry about bad word-of-mouth, because if they are on revision 12 by now you can bet they are already complaining, regardless of who's fault it is that it's gone this far. Add to that the fact that one guy is already sending disgruntled emails to you, and you can trust that they've already cried about the situation to anyone that might listen or care, and even to some who don't.

your real issue here is the way you've handled agreeing to do free work... if you are going to do this type of thing, to gain experience or whatever, you still have conduct yourself in a manner that shows that you not only value their time, but that you value your own as well. 12 revisions down the line what they've learned about you is that your time is theirs, to do with as they please... and you are the one that allowed that to happen.

if the level of respect for you as a human being, doing them a big favor, has already fallen so low that they no longer treat you decently... then i'd say you've let it go too far. i'd invite them to finish the project elsewhere or start paying you a bit.... as long as you remain nice and keep a professional demeanor, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, regardless of whether the problems they perceive in the mix are their fault or yours. At the end of the day, the buck stops with you, so man-up and tell them where you stand and take back control... something you likely should have done as soon as you noticed performance issues to start with.

i'd also politely reply to the nasty emailer and explain to him that you have neither time nor inclination to indulge the rudeness & hostility in his email, and that given the fact you're doing his band a favor to start with, he can either write back with a different attitude or expect no further responses.

beyond that, if they are still disinclined to respect your time and efforts on their behalf, simply stop taking their calls and mail them their project files. you've nothing to lose there... they have already spoken poorly of you by now if they are the types to do such a thing.

another suggestion... if you are finding yourself in these situations often, it's likely you've put the cart before the horse. the cart being your "reputation" you mentioned being worried about, and the horse being your skill-set, experience, judgment, and your confidence in those things. stop trying to run your own sessions for now and find work as an assistant at an established studio, or with an established local or regional engineer and/or producer. learn the ropes a bit better so that you are better prepared to guarantee you never find yourself holding that particular bag of shit again.

if the remarks above strike home with you, then you are probably in that unfortunate group of young "engineers in training" that have forgone tutelage via normal channels (internship, assistant work, etc.) and just bought some gear and are trying to start a "business"... a route that is often riddled with scenarios like the one you outlined in your post. if this isn't you, and you are already confident in your skill-set and have developed a solid body of work... well then you need to develop better people skills, and this includes the judgment to recognize ingrates before you get into an intractable situation with them.

Good luck.

 

[Melodeath]

Ugh. I will never agree to do free mixing again. One of my friends told me he was recording a demo so I told him I would mix it. Among other factors, 1) I didn't mean completely free, and 2) I didn't know "demo" meant 5-song EP.

I felt like I couldn't let him down, though, so I've been toughing it out. It's absurd, they send me like three pages of mix notes per song though, which is far more than any paying band has ever done. I have to do mix revision where I turn individual bars up/down. :/

Anyway, what everyone else said is good advice. There comes a point where you just tell them like it is, and you either get it done as fast as possible, or tell them if they still aren't happy, they either have to pay you for your time, or take it elsewhere.

 

[AdamWathan]

Cheers for the responses guys.

James, thanks for your input man, I definitely need to step up and command a bit more respect for myself from the people I'm working with. These dudes aren't all bad, it's just this drummer kid who isn't really being as friendly as I'd like. He's not being a complete prick but you can tell he's not making suggestions in a way that's grateful for what I'm doing for them either. He's a kid with zero people skills who was raised on the internet, an unfortunately common scenario these days. Your post is definitely a bit of a reality check about the whole situation... I'm going to stick to recording my own work and the stuff of close friends until I'm really confident in my skills to the point where there's no way I'll let stuff like this pop up again. Unfortunately internships/assistant work aren't a viable option for me as I'm trying to do this recording thing part time on the side of my full time job, so I have to make the best of the situation I am in which is currently doing the best to learn as I go on my own. Yeah, ideally I'd like to throw it all away, intern at a studio and bust my balls for 5 years eating raman noodles for dinner every night until it paid off but I've got a mortgage to pay :/

Thanks again man, your insight is always appreciated!

 

[paladin shredder]

Make one more batch of mixes, and don't listen to anything they say, just use your judgment on how the mix should be. Make a mix that you think other bands would be impressed with, if your goal is to find other bands to record.

If they keep asking for more mixes, tell them you've given them plenty already.

If they start being dicks, then fuck them you don't own them anything. A nice way to say it is, "I've got other recording projects I need to work on, so if you guys are going to keep taking up my time, then I have no other choice but to start charging for each time you guys want new mixes."

or you could just give them the session and say, mix it yourselves!

edit: if this is the band you are talking about:http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/rate-my-mix-tone-threads/496867-pop-punk-ish-band-i-recorded.html: then i say just move on to a new project, the mix is already much better than the playing.

 

[Soundlurker]

While I agree with most of what has been said so far, including what James said, I feel you should take into consideration every criticism. Ask yourself, do you agree with what the musician/band/random listener are saying? If not, try to understand why their opinion is different. Because they are dumb and deaf? Because they are listening on bad phones/speakers? Even if it so to some extent, it's seldom the whole reason behind their different opinion and there is almost always something you can learn/realise by analysing criticism you find surprising. Of course that's just my way of seeing things (though Joey Sturgis seems to have a similar opinion, judging by one of his recent posts).

You could also go the opposite route: always do what YOU think sounds right. That way you'll probably end up working with bands that have pretty much the same views as you regarding how things should sound. The tricky part is that it may turn out that few bands share your idea of good sounding instruments/mixes. Also there's the risk of not making a lot of progress and having mixes that sound almost the same.

 

[AdamWathan]

Make one more batch of mixes, and don't listen to anything they say, just use your judgment on how the mix should be. Make a mix that you think other bands would be impressed with, if your goal is to find other bands to record.

If they keep asking for more mixes, tell them you've given them plenty already.

If they start being dicks, then fuck them you don't own them anything. A nice way to say it is, "I've got other recording projects I need to work on, so if you guys are going to keep taking up my time, then I have no other choice but to start charging for each time you guys want new mixes."

or you could just give them the session and say, mix it yourselves!

edit: if this is the band you are talking about:http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/rate-my-mix-tone-threads/496867-pop-punk-ish-band-i-recorded.html: then i say just move on to a new project, the mix is already much better than the playing.

Cheers, here's a link to this mix actually, different project...

http://www.blindthevisionary.com/aftertheinvasion/final

Any criticism is appreciated, I know it's not great but I think it's alright for a free recording with some pretty damn sloppy drumming...

 

[AdamWathan]

While I agree with most of what has been said so far, including what James said, I feel you should take into consideration every criticism. Ask yourself, do you agree with what the musician/band/random listener are saying? If not, try to understand why their opinion is different. Because they are dumb and deaf? Because they are listening on bad phones/speakers? Even if it so to some extent, it's seldom the whole reason behind their different opinion and there is almost always something you can learn/realise by analysing criticism you find surprising. Of course that's just my way of seeing things (though Joey Sturgis seems to have a similar opinion, judging by one of his recent posts).

You could also go the opposite route: always do what YOU think sounds right. That way you'll probably end up working with bands that have pretty much the same views as you regarding how things should sound. The tricky part is that it may turn out that few bands share your idea of good sounding instruments/mixes. Also there's the risk of not making a lot of progress and having mixes that sound almost the same.

Definitely, and to be fair the current mix is the mix I'm most happy with but a lot of that was just giving myself time and going back to the mix and changing things that *I* didn't like anymore, not really anything to do with their complaints... I might have exaggerated how bad it is really as far as the change lists go, but what's frustrating is that all of the changes have been "oh this guitar bend needs to sustain" or "those vocals sound weird"... My only answers are "well you should have held the bend instead of stopping" and "maybe you should have said you didn't like that vocal take when we were tracking"... Just frustrating to hear bitching about the performances as if it's my fault!

 

[Cyanide_Anima]

man, that is a shitty situation to be it. i listened. the drummer, whew. i feel for ya. i think you've done well considering what you had to work with. tell them that's what they get for free! and like the others said, any more time spent = more coin. be firm. i've done a few bands, and i let the first one walk all over me. lesson learned! if you are doing a project for a low cost or free always tell them "this is what you get for free." and lay it out.

 

[crosstalk]

Dude, didn't I hear that your hard drive crashed and all you have is the mixes you already sent them or that you burned on a CD to listen to? That sure sucks. *Wink* *Wink*

 

[paladin shredder]

Yeah, that mix definitely sounds better than a free mix should! I think it totally fits their sound and the tone of everything is perfect. I would probably add a little bit more presence on the bass and put more reverb on the snare and toms, but it still works without it.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I have a band asking to re do the vocals because they got a new singer. This of course is a whole 2 months after we are done.

So of course I said "yeah, not for free."

What was weird was they were expecting free? So fucking weird.

 

[Melodeath]

^^ Haha, that's bizarre.

A similar thing happened to me. A band came to record some drum parts for 7 songs. Then they paid me. Then 6 months later they wanted to record 3 different songs, and this time drums, guitar, vox, everything. So we agreed on a price. When they paid me, I was confused why it was so little. Apparently when we agreed on the price they meant as a total, i.e. including what they already paid me 6 months ago for the drums-only songs.

 

[Ermz]

Yeah, you really need to be black and white with all clients, just in case. Always break it all down for them, how much they are paying, what they are paying for, when it's due etc. Has to be written down and agreed on so that there is nothing ambiguous about the situation down the track. It tends to get worse depending on how young they are. I normally keep away from teenage bands because their financial organization/responsibility can be called horrendous at best.

@James: The advice about taking it all back and just interning at a studio to learn to grapple with the finer points of the business is a fantastic one, though I feel it may not be quite as applicable these days as it may have been when you originally started recording/engineering.

I wanted the intern gig so bad when I started but there was nothing around. All owner-operator studios that could barely support themselves much less anyone else. The best I was able to do is get in on a few dozen sessions with some local studio owners, and even so I was able to learn much much more via this forum picking off the pieces of advice Andy and others would throw around from time to time. It's a sad era, because I KNOW I skipped out on essential techniques and studio/business etiquette, stuff that the audio school most certainly didn't teach us.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I seem to have made it work. It was a bit of a haphazard 'run before you can walk' approach, but it's resulted in a stable business 4 or so years down the track. I'm sure Adam can make it work for him too, but I think he may have to learn all the mistakes the hard way first in order to not make them again.

 

[AdamWathan]

So I finished the final tweaks tonight, band is super stoked on the mix, whoring it all over the internet and making sure to tell everyone who hears it that it was recorded with me and that they highly recommend me for any other bands who want to lay something down. The drummer who was riling me up a bit originally is the same dude going out of his way to tell everyone how positive of an experience it was tracking with me so that's pretty awesome. All's well that ends well I suppose!

 

[crosstalk]

So I finished the final tweaks tonight, band is super stoked on the mix, whoring it all over the internet and making sure to tell everyone who hears it that it was recorded with me and that they highly recommend me for any other bands who want to lay something down. The drummer who was riling me up a bit originally is the same dude going out of his way to tell everyone how positive of an experience it was tracking with me so that's pretty awesome. All's well that ends well I suppose!

That's great. Gotta love bipolar people! Hope you get some more clients and follow everyone's advice on here.

Just hope they're not doing the thing where they tell people "yeah you should record with this guy, his recordings are awesome and best of all he does it for FREE!" I hate when you quote a price to the band and in return you get "well you did it for this amount for this band at some point in time."