Why is it bad to turn down the master fader?

[abyssofdreams]

Title says it all.
Prolly a stupid question but I ran some mixdown tests in my DAW, sometimes with putting the master fader at -10db or even more and I can't hear any different results in my mixdowns...

Looking at the frequencies with an analyzer it doesn't show any changes either...

So?
Btw, I'm not talking analog here...

 

[HeadCrusher]

iirc there was a thread with almost the same title some time ago already.

 

[abyssofdreams]

yah? Hmm, can you point me to it? I searched but I can't seem to find it...

 

[jesterroot4]

well if using limiters, for mastering within your DAW, i find it will only let u limit up to the point that your master fader is at,

so if ur at -3db u will only be able to limit up to -3db were as u wud usualy want to get your mix sitting at 0db

i have no idea whether this is the reason, but i noticed this happening a while back, and since then i've never touch the master fader.

i also believe its better practice if you mix with the aim of not making it clip without having to touch the master. it makes u fiddle more, and fiddling is good lol

 

[Metaltastic]

I'm pretty certain the reason is some sort of digital mumbo-jumbo involving a loss of bit-depth/resolution with the master fader anywhere beneath 0.0 - That's what I've always heard, anyway, and is one of the big reasons for using an analog volume control for your monitors rather than anything digital. This is something I've been really curious about too, so if anyone has any further insight, I'd appreciate it as well!

 

[HeadCrusher]

^about the same what i'm thinkin'!

here's a link. the thread doesn't have the exact same title but i think that's the one i was thinkin' about: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/andy-sneap/261474-exporting-mix-master-fader-not-zero-wrong.html

 

[HeadCrusher]

oh yeah and this one might be interesting as well: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/andy-sneap/251254-master-fader-red.html

 

[deLuther]

If signal is greater than 0db DFS and mixdown bitdepth is 32 then normalization after mixdown will give unclipped signal...
For example VST standard works in -1;1 (for 0db) range while 32bit has much more capacity.

 

[ahjteam]

well if using limiters, for mastering within your DAW, i find it will only let u limit up to the point that your master fader is at,

so if ur at -3db u will only be able to limit up to -3db were as u wud usualy want to get your mix sitting at 0db

i have no idea whether this is the reason, but i noticed this happening a while back, and since then i've never touch the master fader.

i also believe its better practice if you mix with the aim of not making it clip without having to touch the master. it makes u fiddle more, and fiddling is good lol

Thats why I always put my limiter post fader and to -1dBFS, IF I have to use them.

 

[abyssofdreams]

Thats why I always put my limiter post fader, IF I have to use them.

+1

 

[C_F_H_13]

This has been debated alot lately. Here's Digidesign take on it...basically they say there is no difference between lowering your master fader or lowering all the individual tracks....

http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat....page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#1067011

However that's with there 48bit fixed system, not 32bit floating like cubase/neundo/logic.... so who knows.

 

[smy1]

Thats why I always put my limiter post fader and to -1dBFS, IF I have to use them.

Why?

I put mine pre-fader to avoid having the master fader influence it. I do have a Sonalksis FreeG as the first insert on my mixbus to be able to reduce incoming signal a bit, if necessary ...

 

[ahjteam]

Why?

I put mine pre-fader to avoid having the master fader influence it. I do have a Sonalksis FreeG as the first insert on my mixbus to be able to reduce incoming signal a bit, if necessary ...

...which brings us to conclusion that you are doing it the stupid way, not me. In addition to losing an extra insert, you are using more cpu resourses. That does exactly the same as turning down the master fader or the input gain on the mixbus (there is a knob for it in cubase).

I do it post fader because I don't want it even accidentally to reach the 0dBFS. It is there for limiting purposes, not as an artistic tool

 

[scorpio01169]

...which brings us to conclusion that you are doing it the stupid way, not me. In addition to losing an extra insert, you are using more cpu resourses. That does exactly the same as turning down the master fader or the input gain on the mixbus (there is a knob for it in cubase).

I do it post fader because I don't want it even accidentally to reach the 0dBFS. It is there for limiting purposes, not as an artistic tool

it's good to see someone that actually uses that knob the way they are supposed to use it....however....i believe the reason you dont wanna turn the fader down during mixing. is it's not only cheating getting the proper levels for mixdown. but if your fader is half way down and you are doing a song that will fade to black then it become less defined and difficult.

 

[Metaltastic]

RIGHT, thank you Scorpio, I knew I had learned in class there was a reason to make the limiter pre-fader - when doing a fade-out, you'll get some funky pumping and level boosting if the limiter is post-fader. On the other hand, if you're not doing a fade-out, I don't think it's an issue, but better to get in the habit methinks...

 

[Zombietakeover]

im confused, lol so i need to be putting the Limiter on the post fader(inset7,8 in nuendo) on the master out if im mastering in my DAW correct?

 

[Student]

0dBFS is clipping, get it at -0.3 MAX...

Master fader on consoles meant you were utilizing the headroom available on the stereo buss, and when you pushed the stereo bus on an SSL or Neve or whatever, the board's "sound" becomes more apparent, more character.

I use the master fader in Pro Tools to bring down a mix that is clipping 1-2 converters, or bring up a mix that is mixed at a quieter level for final bounce...maybe I'm an idiot and wasting your time...$0.02

Rock!