Why is the metalness of Black Sabbath questioned but not 80s Priest or Dio?

[Senor Limpio]

I've seen quite a few people claim that Sabbath in the 70s was not metal because they were "too blues influenced", yet these same people will insist that Dio, Dio, Sabbath, Judas Priest's British Steel, etc. are "real metal". Why is that? I think that a good chunk of Sabbath's first 6 albums is more unmistakably metal than say, songs like Breaking the Law, Neon Knights, Rainbow in the Dark, etc.

Neon Knights more metal than Electric Funeral or Children of the Grave, really?

 

[The Ozzman]

There was more than one Dio?

 

[Senor Limpio]

There was more than one Dio?

Oops, I just meant to write "Dio" and "Dio Sabbath"

 

[Allfader]

I've seen quite a few people claim that Sabbath in the 70s was not metal because they were "too blues influenced", yet these same people will insist that Dio, Dio, Sabbath, Judas Priest's British Steel, etc. are "real metal". Why is that? I think that a good chunk of Sabbath's first 6 albums is more unmistakably metal than say, songs like Breaking the Law, Neon Knights, Rainbow in the Dark, etc.

Neon Knights more metal than Electric Funeral or Children of the Grave, really?

The consensus is that Black Sabbath's debut is the first "real/full" metal album.

 

[Senor Limpio]

The consensus is that Black Sabbath's debut is the first "real/full" metal album.

I agree with that consensus. However I've noticed quite a few people say otherwise. I've even seen people claim that Sabbath wasn't metal until Dio joined.

 

[Allfader]

I agree with that consensus. However I've noticed quite a few people say otherwise. I've even seen people claim that Sabbath wasn't metal until Dio joined.

They are either ignorant people that can't discern what's metal or not by simple observation or they are trolling. In other words, fuck them.

 

[no country for old wainds]

all of these bands have plenty of songs that aren’t metal. the non-metalness of some tunes is more widely discussed in sabbath’s case because they’re the formative metal band. no idea why anyone would outright dismiss the metalness of the whole of their s/t though, as i’ve seen on here before.

 

[Allfader]

Also...

Rocka Rolla is far less metal than Sabbath's first albums and that's also a sort of consensus. For most metal fans, the real JP started with Sad Wings of Destiny.

Dio was a singer before metal even existed. He came from a rock and roll scene, to hard rock to metal. Questioning the man's "metalness" it's a matter of ignorance and perspective.

 

[Senor Limpio]

Also...

Rocka Rolla is far less metal than Sabbath's first albums and that's also a sort of consensus. For most metal fans, the real JP started with Sad Wings of Destiny.

Dio was a singer before metal even existed. He came from a rock and roll scene, to hard rock to metal. Questioning the man's "metalness" it's a matter of ignorance and perspective.

I'm not personally questioning Dio's metalness, I'm just challenging the idea that Sabbath didn't become metal until he joined.

all of these bands have plenty of songs that aren’t metal. the non-metalness of some tunes is more widely discussed in sabbath’s case because they’re the formative metal band. no idea why anyone would outright dismiss the metalness of the whole of their s/t though, as i’ve seen on here before.

Agreed.

 

[rusty water]

Sabbath weren't and aren't metal, they are heavy rock. Ritchie Blackmores Rainbow with Dio wasn't and isn't metal. Dio on his own / solo was metal.

 

[Senor Limpio]

Sabbath weren't and aren't metal, they are heavy rock. Ritchie Blackmores Rainbow with Dio wasn't and isn't metal. Dio on his own / solo was metal.

Explain to me why "Sweet Leaf" is not metal but "Rainbow in the Dark" is

 

[rusty water]

Explain to me why "Sweet Leaf" is not metal but "Rainbow in the Dark" is

To be honest, IMO neither of those tracks are metal. Rainbow in the dark hasn't got anything sort of aggressive or metal about it, its a rock riff. Not all of Dios solo stuff was metal. The Holy Diver riff was sort of a copy of Sabbaths heaven and hell song. Dont talk to strangers is sort of metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Generally, people that question the metalness of early Sabbath fall into two camps

1) People that don't like metal but still enjoy the first 2-4 Sabbath albums
2) Kids that were introduced to metal through Slayer, The Black Dahlia Murder, etc

And in my experience, the latter group often considers Judas Priest and Iron Maiden to be rock/non-metal as well.

 

[Allfader]

I'm not personally questioning Dio's metalness, I'm just challenging the idea that Sabbath didn't become metal until he joined.

The thing that changed when Dio joined Sabbath was the direction Iommi wanted for the band. He went for a more traditional heavy/power metal sound since he had a capable singer that could handle it, but it wasn't really "more" metal than the Ozzy material.

Generally, people that question the metalness of early Sabbath fall into two camps

1) People that don't like metal but still enjoy the first 2-4 Sabbath albums
2) Kids that were introduced to metal through Slayer, The Black Dahlia Murder, etc

And in my experience, the latter group often considers Judas Priest and Iron Maiden to be rock/non-metal as well.

Absolutely. It's like people that got into black metal through the Norwegian scene, yet they fail to recognize the black metal element on Hellhammer, Celtic Frost and Bathory.

 

[no country for old wainds]

great now we get three pages of hbb arguing with everyone about bathory

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I've seen quite a few people claim that Sabbath in the 70s was not metal

we call those people "low metal IQ" individuals around these parts.

 

[rusty water]

Heavy rock songs are very blues based. Replying to an earlier post, Judas Priest and Iron Maiden are definitely heavy metal. Their riffs are fast, and arent as bluesy. This is all subjective. At one end of the spectrum is non metal and at the other is heavy metal and it is where you draw the line, the boundary between, and the grey area around that line. The singing on extreme metal is certainly different from that of heavy rock for example. There is a visual difference too, where metal bands wear a lot of studs and act macho etc.
Sabbath for example, they've been around since the early seventies era and there was no heavy metal then. There was no heavy metal then. Heavy Metal came with the generation of musicians from the early eighties ( generally ), that were influenced by heavy rock.
It amuses me that heavy metallers say they are into Led Zeppelin. Zeppelin are hippies, and they were a band of variety. They started off as a kind of heavy blues and progressed through all kinds of music, but none too far away from loud guitar. They were also folk music and were very experimental.

 

[Talos of Atmora]

And in my experience, the latter group often considers Judas Priest and Iron Maiden to be rock/non-metal as well.

I once knew a guy who was of the opinion that Iron Maiden wasn't metal but his favorite Slayer album was Show No Mercy, the most NWOBHM-esque thing in their discog.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I know plenty of people who enjoy early Slayer but dont give much of a shit about Maiden or Priest. And most of them are old too. And there's nothing surprising there since they have a completely different sound.

And im not sure ive met single person who doesn't think Maiden and Priest are metal, and im almost 35.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

"in my experience" means people on internet forums fwiw, I've never met one of those people in real life either. I did have a lab subordinate once come to me asking whether or not Ozzy Osbourne was "real metal or just rock" though.