Why is the metalness of Black Sabbath questioned but not 80s Priest or Dio?

[TechnicalBarbarity]

"in my experience" means people on internet forums fwiw, I've never met one of those people in real life either. I did have a lab subordinate once come to me asking whether or not Ozzy Osbourne was "real metal or just rock" though.

yeah tbf i've ran into a few people(IRL and on this forum) who question the "metalness" of Ozzy's solo stuff.

 

[CiG]

It amuses me that heavy metallers say they are into Led Zeppelin. Zeppelin are hippies, and they were a band of variety.

That's not amusing at all.

 

[Senor Limpio]

Generally, people that question the metalness of early Sabbath fall into two camps

1) People that don't like metal but still enjoy the first 2-4 Sabbath albums
2) Kids that were introduced to metal through Slayer, The Black Dahlia Murder, etc

And in my experience, the latter group often considers Judas Priest and Iron Maiden to be rock/non-metal as well.

Is there a 3rd category, 60s babies who were introduced to metal by 80s pop metal and don't want to acknowledge that metal existed before that?

 

[Senor Limpio]

I also want to point out that when you watch the live Sabbath performances (even from 1970), it's pretty obvious that they can be counted as metal even by today's standards. I watched their 1970 Paris set and in my opinion it clearly goes past being heavy psychedelic/blues rock and crosses the threshold of being metal. It's actually very impressive that Iommi's tone was so heavy all the way back in 1970. Ward and Butler really tore it up too

 

[rusty water]

That's not amusing at all.

I can recall an amusing incident. I was out one night with my friend and his girlfriend, now ex, and my girlfriend, now ex, and at some point we got onto the subject of Led Zeppelin. His girlfriend, cant remember her name ( nor mine actually ), she was sort of into Iron Maiden and was pretending to be a real Metaller so she could get with my friend. Anyway, she said " I like Led Zeppelin, he is fit ".

 

[jimmy101]

Sabbath weren't and aren't metal, they are heavy rock. Ritchie Blackmores Rainbow with Dio wasn't and isn't metal. Dio on his own / solo was metal.

Sure, Sabbath's early shit is blues tinged. Metal had to evolve from somewhere though. But just listen to the title track from the first album, there isn't a hint of blues in that song. You've got every single ingredient for heavy metal right there.

And then consider songs such as Iron Man, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Into the Void, Symptom of the Universe & Electric Funeral. How can you possibly regard these tracks as anything but metal?

 

[no country for old wainds]

not to mention hand of doom, under the sun, war pigs, children of the fuckin' grave, the list goes on.

 

[jimmy101]

Fuck I love Under the Sun.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I'd add people calling the older albums the best ones are obviously more interested in the mystique of the music, not the music (itself). A song off 'Master of Reality' vs a song off any of the later established-period albums is a joke musically. It sounds like a child writing what he thinks is a heavy metal song in his shallow little mind, VS veteran warrior-composers' wisely crafted song-writing gold. There's like at minimum one tier if not two or three separating the two kinds.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Define "the later established-period albums".

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Define "the later established-period albums".

i was expecting to get clocked over the head with a hammer, not a serious response. You even sound like you somewhat agree with the nonsense there.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/threads/best-cannibal-corpse-album.1319328/page-3#post-11717638

 

[jimmy101]

Hahaha very good. I knew that sentence structure felt familiar.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

i was expecting to get clocked over the head with a hammer, not a serious response. You even sound like you somewhat agree with the nonsense there.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/threads/best-cannibal-corpse-album.1319328/page-3#post-11717638

Well, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is clearly a little more complex and proggy relative to Master of Reality, and the Dio albums are a bit tighter as well, but yeah I thought there was something odd going on.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Well, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is clearly a little more complex and proggy relative to Master of Reality, and the Dio albums are a bit tighter as well

but does that make those albums better than Master of Reality? I'm pretty sure that we can all(except for Ozz) agree that the answer is a HELL FUCKING NO.

 

[jimmy101]

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath has a case for being better than Master of Reality. Prefer Master of Reality myself though.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

but does that make those albums better than Master of Reality? I'm pretty sure that we can all(except for Ozz) agree that the answer is a HELL FUCKING NO.

I don't argue opinions on this forum, only facts.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath has a case for being better than Master of Reality. Prefer Master of Reality myself though.

I was mainly referring to the albums with Dio in comparison to their first 6 with Ozzy.

I wouldn't say Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is better than Master of Reality(a 4.5 album vs a 5 star one), but i wouldn't really argue with someone about it either.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Born Again is the best album in any case

 

[CiG]

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath

My personal fave of the Ozzy era stuff, usually between that and Vol. 4.

but i wouldn't really argue with someone about it either.

Yeah, ditto.

 

[jimmy101]

Born Again is the best album in any case

Yep, good album that gets overlooked far too often.