Win one, lose another

[Ermz]

Warning: You're about to read rant material with no real point or question about it. If that doesn't work for you, please hit the back button on your browser!

Well, since grabbing my new monitors I've been blessed with the ability to hear absurd amounts of detail into mixes. In fact, one of the very first things these speakers highlighted, bright as day, is the deficiencies in my room.

So, 19 acoustic traps, and 2 days of moving the speakers around later I've discovered a massive bass null at 90 to 100hz in my space. It is in fact so severe that it explains all the issues I've had with low-end in my mixes. I always noticed that I had too much 100hz and too little 160 content. Guess what? Null at 100 and massive peak at 140 and 160. The bass in here manages to sound both thin AND muddy at the same time.

I'm at an impasse... I'm absolutely just over it and don't know what to do anymore. This is the biggest room in the house, sans the living room so there's really no option apart from superchunking every corner I can find and praying for the best. Even so, since it's a rental property I have no ability to hammer the current traps into the walls.

Really sucks to be between a rock and hard place.

 

[Morgan C]

Mix the low-end on headphones or just adjust your mixes now that you know what you're hearing, I think are the only two options.

I always switch between a heap of different systems when mixing because none of them are excellent at everything, and all of them have a skewed frequency response that, while I know it and am used to it, its still hard to get something right when you can't hear it. A plus is that after mixing I know it sounds good on most systems that listeners will use.

 

[The Unavoidable]

I'd say you are over-thinking things. Just mix the low end slightly different to compensate, and do reference mixes until you get it right. 100% detail at 100-160hz isn't going to make the difference between Andy Sneap and no-name-engineer #1657.

 

[drew_drummer]

If you know you're getting too much 160hz and not enough 100hz, throw a signal analyser onto the master bus and do some EQ until the peak is gone. Mixing with an analyser is pretty important I'd say. I wouldn't rely solely on your room.

 

[Soundlurker]

I guess you should try building a Helmholtz resonator. From what I've read they are very effective at the frequency they are tuned for. Being aware of the problem and using an analyser may help but it's like putting a band-aid on a serious injury.

 

[Ermz]

I think this room is a little too far gone for a Helmholtz. There are way too many problem areas to address with just one tuned resonator. I think I'll have have to superchunk the living turd out of everything that resembles a corner and pray for the best. Being a rental property makes this all that much harder.

I'm weary of 'mixing around the problem'. I've been doing it for over 5 years now and it just makes the mixing way longer than it needs to be. Things are so much easier when you don't have to second guess yourself. That was half the reason I got the Opals.

 

[Kazrog]

Headphones. I got a pair of AKG K702s so that I don't have to worry about my room as much. Every $10 you spend on headphones is equivalent to $100 in speakers, the experts say.

Even in the best studio in the world, no room is ever perfect. In a rental property you won't be able to get anywhere near close. It's not worth bothering with.

 

[Mutant]

A pair of HIGH QUALITY flat response headphones >>>> bad room acoustics with even the best monitors.

 

[::XeS::]

Did you try RoomEq? It's a software that check the frequency response of your room.
Anyway your problem is actually my problem too...but I noticed problems also in the mids region (in my room I can hear well the snare for example but when I listen my mixes in my car, often it disappears...and often there is too much bass (boomy low ends).
Unfortunatelly, a dedicated place/room is one of the most difficult place to find, because if you rent a place, you can't do too many works... some place have neighboors etc, etc, etc...

 

[Sickan]

Did you try RoomEq?

I use it and it's great, I use it with the FBQ2496 and I will probably buy a measurment mic to it next week!

 

[Skaldir]

If you have treated your room and you have problems with f.e 100 Hz too low, than your listening position must be in a "wave-valley". There are some "valleys" and some "hills" in every room. So move your stuff around and see. But since you have moved everything for 2 days, you might have absorbed too much bass with your bass traps. This can happen. Maybe get rid of some and see if it gets better.

 

[vespiz]

I hear you. I just finished buildin our control room (with several traps and 2 superchunks) and after moving things around and measuring, I have a dip in 70Hz, 90Hz, a big one at about 114Hz and curiously at 1,2kHz. No serious peaks though, which seems a bit odd.

I'm thinking that just adding more trapping at some point will smoothen those dips somewhat, if I can find room for them! Helmholz is a very good option if the nulls are very pronounced, but the lower you go, the bigger the trap has to be..

 

[DevilJaw]

im going crazy aswell, i used to feel the low freq dips by the resonance they made with the floor, but now that i substantially decreased the floor resonance, i cant tell shit from chocolate.

 

[Soundlurker]

If you have treated your room and you have problems with f.e 100 Hz too low, than your listening position must be in a "wave-valley". There are some "valleys" and some "hills" in every room. So move your stuff around and see. But since you have moved everything for 2 days, you might have absorbed too much bass with your bass traps. This can happen. Maybe get rid of some and see if it gets better.

You are talking about peaks and nulls and Ermz is aware of the problems that arises from standing at a peak, null or both. His space is limited and doesn not allow much moving around, especially if he is to have a symmetrical setup which is a must for a number of reasons.

You can't have too much bass absorbtion in a typical room. Peaks result when reflected sound waves overlap and are in phase. Nulls are result of the same, only the waves are out of phase. Both are result of reflected sound, hence when you absorb the sound before it's reflected you avoid those peaks and nulls and end up with a smoother frequency response of the room.

 

[KeithTidd]

How about removing alot of the room treatmemt? Your mixes you made before treatment are good low-end wise right? I say strip away as much treatment as necessary until you can get the consistency of your old mixes.

I've always mixed in a untreated room, AND one of my monitors is near a corner. I get decent mixes that translate, and i don't have any treatment. That doesn't mean my room is as flat or dry as a pro control room, but it works. I think if it wasn't that f'd in the first place, why go mucking it up and changing the known qualities of your room?

 

[Melodeath]

Ermz, do you listen to music, you know, everyday activities, on your Opals?

 

[Erkan]

Hedfooonez! Even though the BeyerDynamic DT-990Pro are not flat, I love them... I'm beginning to learn them quite well and that's all that matters, learning that is. And since they're headphones... well fuck the room I know you can't do like me though, since I'm on a way more amateur level than you are so while I can rely pretty much only on headphones, I understand you can't/don't want to. But still... maybe mixing the bass in a pair of headphones that you truly know would help a huge way on the problem.

 

[botus99]

I have a very similar issue with 120hz. The fix?

Put an EQ before the monitors notching it down a few dB's. Ideal fix, hell no, but its been working great for me

 

[Ermz]

You can't have too much bass absorbtion in a typical room.

+1, though I would amend that and say *any* room. There is no such thing as too much bass absorption.

Headphones can be an okay reference to check low-end, but I've never been fond of using them for any prolonged periods of time. It's important that if some beginners are reading this thread they don't get skewed impressions from some of the posts here.

Mixing in a shoebox of a room with SHITE monitors is preferable to mixing on good headphones.

Headphones will fuck your shit up. You will get an immensely skewed perception of what's actually going on. Use them to reference imaging, depth and bass from time to time, but NEVER rely on them for the grunt work.

Room EQ sucks. I'm currently using a notch at 140hz on the Opals and all it does is make the bass thinner. You still get ringing at that frequency, it just isn't quite as in your face. It's a patchwork solution at best. Positioning and absorption is the only way to go.

 

[Fox Mulder]

KRK Ergo?