-18db mixing

GearMan2point0

GearMan2point0

Musician/Engineer
Feb 13, 2011
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I was reading thru some old posts ( http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/f-o-h/776655-can-someone-explain-18-db-mixing.html ) and I have a question in regards to the idea. When doing this technique which I thought I was doing this whole time, does the source of the different instruments have to be at -18db? Like for instance, I have ssd up and its peaking at -6db on the track meter. (Snares at -6, Toms at -6....etc) do I turn them down via fader on the ssd, or individual instruments or on the actual ssd player (plugin). Also say I get it to peak at -18 do I , and while tracking guitar via podfarm, during playback its louder than ssd at source. Can I turn down the fader and it still be hitting before my pligins (eq, comp etc) at -18.

Realizing now that reading this is very hard to understand =P.

Just throw ideas at me haha.
 
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I believe your confusing RMS (average loudness) with Peak.

I do agree with you thought the gain staging process is a bit confusing when using samples. If it is common knowledge to mix at moderate levels then why are most drum samples almost peaked out?

When loading up a slate sample for example are you guys trimming the sample before printing it? Do you print it hot and then trim? Do you lower the output of the sampler (trigger/drumagog)? When the best method? I find I track everything at proper levels roughly (-18rms) maybe peaks of snare and kicks around -6 db. The mix almost sits perfectly mixed with very little adjustments needed on the faders. Once i start adding drum samples my gain staging gets a bit thrown off.

Any advice or tips on would be stellar.

Thanks \m/
 
I usually lower the output of the sampler. If trigger or superior is peaking really high, THEY HAVE FUCKING VOLUME KNOBS. Turn em down a little.

Also, Studdy is right, you are confusing peak and rms. That little chart above will be very helpful, but keep this in mind. When tracking to tape machines and using vu meters, they're showing you an average level. Your DAW is showing you the PEAK. Drum/ percussion transients will peak much higher than what their RMS level shows. So When I record to tape and am setting levels for a snare, I'm not going near the 0vu unless I want it to sound saturated as fuck, because it is peaking 6-10db higher than the meter shows.

So when we say -16db or -18db should be your goal, that is the average. It can be a bit above, sometimes a bit below. It's not life or death. Give yourself 6 or 8 db of headroom for peaky drum transients, and try to keep vox, guitars, bass, etc, closer to -16.

Back to your original query, if SSD is peaking your drums around 6 or 8, that's perfect. Record your di's in at around -16. They may peak a little higher as well because a di signal is pretty dynamic. Set pod farms level to spit out close to -16 or 18 BEFORE you hit it with compressors and junk. Again, you don't need to spend inordinate amounts of time making sure you're exactly at -18. Just leave yourself a bit of room and go.
 
"They Have Fucking Volume Knobs" I do know this. I just felt like when I lowered the output of drumagog that I was losing something (punch/feel). I just wondered which way was best.
 
Sorry that was meant more as an emphatic blanket statement to everyone, not tryin to be a dick. You FEEL like they're losing a little punch because the level is lower. Loudness is VERY deceiving. Nothing else changes, so just adjust your output and then turn your monitors back up. The punch will return!
 
mva801 said:
Sorry that was meant more as an emphatic blanket statement to everyone, not tryin to be a dick. You FEEL like they're losing a little punch because the level is lower. Loudness is VERY deceiving. Nothing else changes, so just adjust your output and then turn your monitors back up. The punch will return!
Click to expand...

Words of wisdom!
 
How many times...have your tracks PEAK between -6 and -12/13/15/18 dBFS (standard DAW metering) and that's it. Watching RMS and especially VU meters for peaky transient rich stuff (such as drums, or guitar raw DI) is pretty much useless.
Don't over-think it, just mix the god damn thing already :)
 
You have to take this with a grain of salt. 0 on a VU meter will read -18 or whatever your converters are calibrated to with a 1k sine wave. Obviously we're not recording sine waves.

You'll find distorted guitars will read 0 on a VU meter and something like -10 ITB. As someone else stated watching drums on a VU is useless. VU meters are not fast enough.
 
Uros said:
How many times...have your tracks PEAK between -6 and -12/13/15/18 dBFS (standard DAW metering) and that's it. Watching RMS and especially VU meters for peaky transient rich stuff (such as drums, or guitar raw DI) is pretty much useless.
Don't over-think it, just mix the god damn thing already :)
Click to expand...

NO I MUST MIX -16DBFSVU PEAKING AROUND -5RMSDBU, OR GODS OF MIX FROWN. WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

Also, I recommend mixing with everything peaking around christmas. It will save you a lot of money on christmaslights!

But seriously...yea don't go nuts over this. It really is just a good ballpark to start off from. It is like saying it's best to fill up a glass to about 3/4th, so it doesn't overflow when you walk with it, but you also don't have to walk back to the kitchen to get a new drink after 2 sips. A drop more or less won't matter.

And Sicroker's image shows it well. For a -18dbfs calibrated system, that is a fine example of how it could look.
 
i feel like this topic is way over-analyzed

for the love of god, just don't clip your preamps when tracking(unless you're purposefully doing it for effect). that should keep the converters from clipping, at which point the numbers all over the screen don't really mean shit. keep shit out of the red on the way in and out, and let the ears do the rest...
 
^^^ The numbers on the screen DO mean things.... Many plugins are calibrated to work a certain way at a certain level, 0VU. That's the reason you should aim close to it. I agree many people over-analyze and dont really understand it, but if you record everything at barely under clipping that's just as bad.

It really is easy when you get down to it. For material with a lot of percussive peaks, keep it a few db below clipping to give yourself room. For other shit, don't overdo it. Keep the average 10 or so db down and move on. It's important, but it isn't rocket science.
 
mva801 said:
^^^ The numbers on the screen DO mean things.... Many plugins are calibrated to work a certain way at a certain level, 0VU. That's the reason you should aim close to it. I agree many people over-analyze and dont really understand it, but if you record everything at barely under clipping that's just as bad.

It really is easy when you get down to it. For material with a lot of percussive peaks, keep it a few db below clipping to give yourself room. For other shit, don't overdo it. Keep the average 10 or so db down and move on. It's important, but it isn't rocket science.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I'd argue that the benefit of -18 dB mixing goes beyond this as well. Actually, it doesn't necessarily have to be -18; just something consistent. I find it extremely helpful to consistently have my mixes coming form my DAW at the same RMS level, because I know then that anytime I turn my monitor controller to a specific gain the track will be at about the same volume relative to anything else that I've mixed before. If I turn my monitoring system all the way up (calibrated at about 77 dBSPL in my room when the track from my DAW is at -18 dBFS RMS), I know for sure that I'm listening at the same relative volume compared to other stuff I've done and I can then better make judgements on frequency balances, effects levels, etc from previous experience. To me, this is the biggest benefit of having some sort of consistent level.
 
^^ All good points. There are great write-ups about room calibration and level consistency in Katz's Mastering Audio book. That's one of many benefits, but most of the newcomers just need to learn to leave the right headroom on the right tracks and keep it consistent. They'll learn more as they go.
 
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