Confusion w/ Volume Faders & Peaking

[Tamarocker88]

Hello everyone,

Let me preface this by apologizing for posting this question if the answer is blatantly obvious. I did use the search function and read through a pile of threads, but didn't quite find my answer. I also haven't found this specific information in any of the drum and guitar tutorials I have read, so I'm sorry if I'm dense and "didn't get the memo".

So here it is.. I'm confused about when and where exactly volume is supposed to be peaking for each track and where. Let me specify.

I use Ableton as my DAW. I know that the Master fader is to always sit at 0 and never go past -6dB or so while tracking to leave headroom for the mixing and mastering. This is clear to me.


What confuses me, however, is how I'm supposed to make sure tracks are peaking at their appropriate dB levels (like -18dB for bass drum or -24dB for guitars). Do I track the instrument at that level by lowering the volume on the input of the audio interface? Or do I want each track to be recorded as hot as possible without clipping, and then lower each track's volume fader to the desired peak?


As an added question.... Once the track is set to peak at the appropriate level, do I also need to make sure that the track does not peak past that point after being processed by each VST plugin? Because Ableton has a volume meter next to each plugin in a chain, showing the volume level after it's been processed. I've noticed that even though the overall guitar track won't be anywhere past -24dB, some of the VST plugins' output volume meters show that they're clipping.

 

[bryan_kilco]

You'd leave all your faders in your DAW at 0.

Turn up/down the gain on your mic preamp to get it sitting at -18dB in your DAW.

Win.

edit: I'd track guitars hotter than -24dB. I normally go a bit hotter than -18 with guitars and vocals.

 

[Tamarocker88]

You'd leave all your faders in your DAW at 0.

Turn up/down the gain on your mic preamp to get it sitting at -18dB in your DAW.

Win.

Wow really? So I will actually be tracking each instrument so that they don't peak any higher than the suggested levels of -18dB etc???

I guess noobsauce here has been recording everything too hot???

 

[egan.]

As long as you aren't clipping you're fine. What Bryan is suggesting is a good general room to leave yourself plenty of headroom.

 

[Tamarocker88]

As long as you aren't clipping you're fine. What Bryan is suggesting is a good general room to leave yourself plenty of headroom.

Well whenever I record my tracks, I never allow them to clip. I set them so that they're recorded at highest possible volume without clipping.

The problem I'm running into is that my VST chains for my guitars are clipping so I end up having to lower their settings to make sure they don't clip. This leaves me with weak sounding guitars.

 

[timislegend]

yea

 

[bryan_kilco]

Well whenever I record my tracks, I never allow them to clip. I set them so that they're recorded at highest possible volume without clipping.

The problem I'm running into is that my VST chains for my guitars are clipping so I end up having to lower their settings to make sure they don't clip. This leaves me with weak sounding guitars.

Are you recording real amps or DI signal?

I hit about -6 when recording DI guitars, but I've tracked them at -18 and still got great results.

 

[Tamarocker88]

Are you recording real amps or DI signal?

I hit about -6 when recording DI guitars, but I've tracked them at -18 and still got great results.

I am recording guitars DI. But I do record drums as well. I suppose it makes sense that I'll have an easier time with signal processing if I track it between -6 and -18 so that I don't have to worry about the VST's overloading.

I'm currently running my DI tracks through a compressor which goes to the LePou Legion Amp, which goes to the LePou LeCab cabinet loaded with a couple impulses. I used to run an EQ as well, but at this point I'm satisfied with just using the LP and HP filter knobs on the LeCab.

 

[Plankis]

The problem I'm running into is that my VST chains for my guitars are clipping so I end up having to lower their settings to make sure they don't clip. This leaves me with weak sounding guitars.

How come you don't like the exact same tone on different levels? Because louder ALWAYS sounds better! You really need to be careful with this. Make sure to always monitor audio on the same level.

 

[Tamarocker88]

How come you don't like the exact same tone on different levels? Because louder ALWAYS sounds better! You really need to be careful with this. Make sure to always monitor audio on the same level.

Yeah, I know our ears always think louder is better. I think the problem here is that I've apparently been tracking too hot. This leads my VST's to be overloading once I've got them configured to the level I want them, even if the overall track isn't peaking past -24dB. In order to compensate, I need to lower my configurations in the amp sim VST and the Cab VST. This completely changes the tonality and leaves me with a weak sounding guitar tone.

 

[Plankis]

Aha it was levels before the amp, yeah a lot of different tonalities can be found there. But people do overload into a amp all the time, see overdrives, so don't be afraid to try that. You don't have to worry about the Cab vst, because impulses are linear and don't react differently to different levels. Just make sure that your DI's doesn't clip on the way in and that the final tones doesn't clip the masterbuss at all.

 

[Tamarocker88]

Just make sure that your DI's clip on the way in and the final tones doesn't clip the masterbuss at all.

So I don't have to be worried about the volume meters showing on my VST plugins as long as the DI track isn't clipping?

 

[Plankis]

The meters in your vstplugin should show the same thing as your meters in the daw, if you haven't done some level changes pre-vst.
What I meant is if you've record in 24/44.1 and nothing was clipping on the way in you can do pretty much what you want afterwards.

 

[ahjteam]

personally there one thing I _REALLY_ like about protools. It's a really minor thing when you think about it, and you can modify it on cubase and what not. But it's the colours guidelines of the meters.

When I'm recording, I aim to have everything so that the levels hit only the green area and the peaks can like rarely hit the yellow line, which I think is like at -12dBFS or something. Not clipping, plenty of headroom for player dynamics and loud enough for tracking with headphones.

When mixing, I aim to hit so that anything, and especially the master bus, doesn't hit the red area at -3dBFS.

When mastering, I aim so that the master bus doesn't hit higher than -0.3, and lately I've been putting it to -0.5 because the mp3 conversion seems to bring it up the peak levels about that much and sometimes it can cause audible distortion. REALLY minor difference if you think about it, but bringing down the master level to -0.5dB really makes it sound better for some reason.

 

[Tamarocker88]

The meters in your vstplugin should show the same thing as your meters in the daw, if you haven't done some level changes pre-vst.
What I meant is if you've record in 24/44.1 and nothing was clipping on the way in you can do pretty much what you want afterwards.

First, I record at 24 bit/48Khz. Does this make a difference?

Second, the meters in my VST's do NOT show the same thing as the overall volume meter for a track. If a VST processes the raw signal and somehow makes it louder, naturally the outgoing signal is going to be louder than what came in. The FL Hardcore plugin, for example, tends to clip on the outgoing audio (or at least the outgoing volume meter flashes red unless I lower the output's volume knob). But honestly anything I say here doesn't help because I've been using the volume faders on the tracks to get the recordings to the appropriate peak level as opposed to recording them at that level.

That's my concern. It seems like I keep hitting a brick wall with my DI'd guitars. Now that I know I should track them between -18 and -6dB I'll see if it is still a problem or if that resolves it. Up til this point, I've been tracking my DI guitar as hot as possible without clipping.

 

[Tamarocker88]

personally there one thing I _REALLY_ like about protools. It's a really minor thing when you think about it, and you can modify it on cubase and what not. But it's the colours guidelines of the meters.

Yeah, I don't know if I can configure the color guidelines in Ableton but the meters are color coded so I know I'm clipping if I see red.

 

[Tamarocker88]

Just make sure that your DI's doesn't clip on the way in and that the final tones doesn't clip the masterbuss at all.

Unfortunately I am confused again... How exactly am I supposed to be tracking in at -6 to -18 and keeping my VST outputs peaking below -24dB? I currently have the same setup as explained before. I have the audio on the interface lowered so the raw track coming in DI peaks at -12. Once put in the compressor and then add the LePou Legion Amp, the master output's signal goes way up. After I add the LePou LeCab and an Impulse, it's still far above -24dB

 

[Melodeath]

You turn the fader down on the track after it's recorded? That's how you would adjust a tracks volume after it's already been recorded.

 

[Tamarocker88]

You turn the fader down on the track after it's recorded? That's how you would adjust a tracks volume after it's already been recorded.

Okay. Earlier someone said that you leave all of the volume faders at 0 and you record your track at the appropriate peak level.

So am I supposed to lower the guitar track volume after I know that I am taking in a hot enough signal so that overall it is peaking at -24?

 

[Melodeath]

Leave the fader at unity (0). Record your track as hot as you please (whether you subscribe to -18dBFS, -6dB peaks, as hot as you can without clipping, or whatever pleases you...). Then once you're recorded, feel free to move the fader as much as you want. You would likely need to turnt he fader down to reach -24dB, unless you recorded the signal very quietly.

You can even move the master fader, though it wont really help you in this particular instance. I'm just responding to one of the first sentences in the OP and letting you know it's perfectly fine to adjust the master fader, as long as you're aware of what's going on with your gain staging.