4 ohm Amp into a 16 ohm cabinet 1x12

WNichols

New Metal Member
Dec 22, 2009
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Hey guys,

This is my first post here but Ive been a lurker for a while having learnt tons from you guys on the forums about amp sims/ impulses etc.

Anyway, Ive got a question I cant quite get the answer to so figured this would be a good place to ask.

Is it safe to connect a Marshall 8100 amp which has a (4 ohm) output into an Orange 112 60w cab rated at (16 ohm) ?

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Wayne
 
I would say "no".

If your head says 100 Watts @ 8 ohms, you need to plug it into a 8-ohm cabinet which can handle 100 Watts. If you plugged it into an 16-ohm cabinet, you might only get 50 Watts of power and probably less volume. If you plugged it into a 4-ohm cab, you’d get a broken output transformer on the long run. There’s not enough resistance and the amp will overwork itself.
 
You won't run the risk of harming the OT if you're running a higher impedance load, you'll only decrease the output power of your amp. ahjteam is correct in that you don't want to run a lower impedance than the amp is rated for, as that it doesn't provide enough resistance and will eventually damage the OT.
 
Usually with tube amps you can go 2 ratings above or below and generally be 'ok'. You will probably get a different sound. I have my ampeg hardwired at 8ohms, but it seems to sound best with my 4ohm cab. With solid state, there is always a minimum ohm rating, usually it's 2-4ohms. Typically you never want to run anything at 2ohms if you can help it.
 
Hey guys,

This is my first post here but Ive been a lurker for a while having learnt tons from you guys on the forums about amp sims/ impulses etc.

Anyway, Ive got a question I cant quite get the answer to so figured this would be a good place to ask.

Is it safe to connect a Marshall 8100 amp which has a (4 ohm) output into an Orange 112 60w cab rated at (16 ohm) ?

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Wayne

NO! for the love of god dont do it unless you want to destroy your amp / cab and possibly kill yourself - if its big enough and has enough load you'll do a lot of damage.

Failure to match impedances will create standing waves on the transmission line due to reflections. These will be periodic regions of higher than normal voltage & If this voltage exceeds the dielectric breakdown strength of the insulating material of the line then an arc will occur. This in turn can cause a reactive pulse of high voltage that can destroy the transmitter's final output stage and if there is fucked up wiring in your amp or it arc's to a metal plate you just so happen to be touching you will instantly DIE!
 
If you play a frequency of around 100hz through your amp, your speaker is actually a 50 ohm load.

Pretty crazy huh?
 
Thanks for all the tips guys. I bought a 6100LM instead of the 8100 (a lot more expensive but hopefully worth it) and that has switchable output (4,8,16 ohms) so will work fine with the PPC112 at 16 ohms without damaging the amp and/or killing myself ;)

Cheers,

Wayne
 
Q: Why do I have to match speakers to the output impedance of the amp?
A: You'll get the most power out of the amp if the load is matched.

Q:Will it hurt my amp/output transformer/tubes to use a mismatched speaker load?
Simple A: Within reason, no.
Say for example you have two eight ohm speakers, and you want to hook them up to an amp with 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps. How do you hook them up?

For most power out, put them in series and tie them to the 16 ohm tap, or parallel them and tie the pair to the 4 ohm load.

For tone? Try it several different ways and see which you like best. "Tone" is not a single valued quantity, either, and in fact depends hugely on the person listening. That variation in impedance versus frequency and the variation in output power versus impedance and the variation in impedance with loading conspire to make the audio response curves a broad hump with ragged, humped ends, and those humps and dips are what makes for the "tone" you hear and interpret. Will you hurt the transformer if you parallel them to four ohms and hook them to the 8 ohm tap? Almost certainly not. If you parallel them and hook them to the 16 ohm tap? Extremely unlikely. In fact, you probably won't hurt the transformer if you short the outputs. If you series them and hook them to the 8 ohm or 4 ohm tap? Unlikely - however... the thing you CAN do to hurt a tube output transformer is to put too high an ohmage load on it. If you open the outputs, the energy that gets stored in the magnetic core has nowhere to go if there is a sudden discontinuity in the drive, and acts like a discharging inductor. This can generate voltage spikes that can punch through the insulation inside the transformer and short the windings. I would not go above double the rated load on any tap. And NEVER open circuit the output of a tube amp - it can fry the transformer in a couple of ways.

Extended A: It's almost never low impedance that kills an OT, it's too high an impedance.

The power tubes simply refuse to put out all that much more current with a lower-impedance load, so death by overheating with a too-low load is all but impossible - not totally out of the question but extremely unlikely. The power tubes simply get into a loading range where their output power goes down from the mismatched load. At 2:1 lower-than-matched load is not unreasonable at all.

If you do too high a load, the power tubes still limit what they put out, but a second order effect becomes important.

There is magnetic leakage from primary to secondary and between both half-primaries to each other. When the current in the primary is driven to be discontinuous, you get inductive kickback from the leakage inductances in the form of a voltage spike.

This voltage spike can punch through insulation or flash over sockets, and the spike is sitting on top of B+, so it's got a head start for a flashover to ground. If the punchthrough was one time, it wouldn't be a problem, but the burning residues inside the transformer make punchthrough easier at the same point on the next cycle, and eventually erode the insulation to make a conductive path between layers. The sound goes south, and with an intermittent short you can get a permanent short, or the wire can burn though to give you an open there, and now you have a dead transformer.

So how much loading is too high? For a well designed (equals interleaved, tightly coupled, low leakage inductances, like a fine, high quality hifi) OT, you can easily withstand a 2:1 mismatch high.

For a poorly designed (high leakage, poor coupling, not well insulated or potted) transformer, 2:1 may well be marginal. Worse, if you have an intermittent contact in the path to the speaker, you will introduce transients that are sharper and hence cause higher voltages. In that light, the speaker impedance selector switch could kill OT's if two ways - if it's a break befor make, the transients cause punch through; if it's a make before break, the OT is intermittently shorted and the higher currents cause burns on the switch that eventually make it into a break before make. Turning the speaker impedance selector with an amp running is something I would not chance, not once.

For why Marshalls are extra sensitive, could be the transformer design, could be that selector switch. I personally would not worry too much about a 2:1 mismatch too low, but I might not do a mismatch high on Marshalls with the observed data that they are not all that sturdy under that load. In that light, pulling two tubes and leaving the impedance switch alone might not be too bad, as the remaining tubes are running into a too-low rather than too-high load.


http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/TUBEFAQ.htm#matchspkr
 
If you play a frequency of around 100hz through your amp, your speaker is actually a 50 ohm load.

Pretty crazy huh?

what? are you serious? so what happens when building impulses and you send a wave through the power amp - when it hits 100hz shouldn't you blow the fuck out of your beautiful brick?
 
what? are you serious? so what happens when building impulses and you send a wave through the power amp - when it hits 100hz shouldn't you blow the fuck out of your beautiful brick?

A speaker's resistance is dynamic and it changes as a signal runs through it.

That's why using a dummy load or attenuator doesn't sound right, but Weber's mass attenuators actually use a real speaker magnet to simulate a working speaker. I'm pretty sure the Hot Plates use some kind of dynamic resistance emulation or something now too. They are more than just a big static resistor.
 
If you play a frequency of around 100hz through your amp, your speaker is actually a 50 ohm load.

Pretty crazy huh?

Reactive loads are a trip, depending on the manufacturing of the speaker, there is a spot in the upper mids (from 1-3K) that has virtually no resistance. :kickass:

I don't think most read what he said correctly. His amp output is 4 ohms and the cabinet is 16ohms. This means that the cabinet will have a heavier amount of resistance than what the OT is expecting. This is actually a safe way to go for tube amps to a certain degree as the tubes are not put on as much strain (they don't work as hard). Since they don't work as hard the OT stays cooler as well. However if the load is extremely high, the voltage swings inside the OT can cause arcing which will destroy the OT and the tubes, but has to be a pretty high load usually 64+ ohms. 32 ohms is the last safest on a 16 ohm tap, 16ohms is the last safest on an 8 ohm and generally anything up to 4 ohms, and 8 ohms generally shouldn't exceed 8 ohms (but still this is playing real safe, it takes a real high load to cause arcing).

The end result of running a 4 ohm amp into a 16 ohm cab is a reduced output wattage and a slightly darker sound. The tubes would actually last longer and the OT would run a lot cooler, but since you were scared to the point of buying another amp that has a selector, all is good.
 
yea, the 8100 is a valve state amp, so the output section is solid state all the way baby.

the 4 ohm load will be the minimum you can plug into it, so 16 will be fine.

thanks,
 
oh jesus, can't believe that one slipped up, yes, SS power amps can take some massive abuse, but 4 ohms into a 16 ohms cabinet would do no damage what-so-ever, just have a reduced volume.

what? are you serious? so what happens when building impulses and you send a wave through the power amp - when it hits 100hz shouldn't you blow the fuck out of your beautiful brick?

the impedance rating of a cabinet is the combined resistance of all the frequencies (both AC and DC resistance) combined, same goes with the OT. The OT's rating is actaully based on the total amount of current that can be pulled from is at that specific tap, so a 16 ohm tap can safely provide enough current that a "collectively" 16 ohm speaker will pull from it.
 
I have a related question:

I plan to record from the FX send of my old Valvestate 8100 and have NO cabinet connected.

Someone told me that I can do this because solid state amps have no output transformer:

"The Valvestate amps are solid state amps and are not coupled to the speaker with an output transformer like valve amps are. There's no load needed for it since with no load there there won't be hardly any current flow through the "current carrier" transistors. "

Is this correct?
 
Yes, you can use amps with a solid state poweramp without a cab/load attached.

The only amp I'm not completely sure about this, is the Peavey XXL because they have tube amp OTs.
 
Didnt read all the stuff here, but if the cab has a higher Indepence (16 in this case). It shouldnt harm. The other way around... you kill it. Our other guitarplayer did this once by accident. Plugged his head into the 4Ohm one instead of the 16Ohm. Think the head was switched to 8 Ohm.