9/11 in 2006.... 5 years have passed and not much has changed

[UnseenChaos]

9/11 was the catalyst that started the unnecessary war on Iraq. Our troops have been sent to Iraq to fatten the pockets of the military equipment manufacturing moguls and oil industry giants. The wealthy corporate elite keep on getting wealthier while the society's underprivlileged in the armed forces are shipped out to their deaths. Meanwhile corporate giants that own the mass media in TV, magazines, newspapers relentlessly brainwash Americans, proclaiming it a war against terrorism when in reality we are the original perpetrators that started this whole mess.

Fastforward to present day, we are still at war for reasons that cannot be justified. Bush is still in the oval office, not yet impeached, like a puppet in the hands of corporate masterminds stringing him along with financial treats and promises whilst furthering their political agendas. The majority of Americans have since grown apathetic, preoccupied with their busy lives of making a living while free time is squandered away in front of the television watching the latest episode of "24".

We should re-write our constitution and pledge of allegiance as a worship of money. Money rules and dominates in a capitalistic society, while justice and liberty are pushed aside/trampled/desecrated/torched.

 

[UnseenChaos]

history has shown us all too blatantly that a socialist government does not work. i'm not advocating that we all become socialist communists. i'm just calling people to take action, lobby to pull our troops out of godforsaken Iraq, impeach Bush while we're at it, and put someone like Ralph Nader in the office. I'm advocating a capitalistic society that provides more help for the underpriviliged instead of putting them in the military, and a government that also has respect for other countries in the world doing trade in a civilized manner instead of going to war to solve problems. A man once said, "He who lives by the sword also dies by the sword." 9/11 has shown us exactly that. We take from what is not rightfully ours by force from the middle east, there will be consequences. Consequences that have shown their ugly face not only in the U.S. but recently in the U.K. and other U.N. nations.

Sure this may sound like some utopian society, but it's more possible that you might think. If the mass media can be independent instead of corporate owned as it is right now, more people would be aware of what is actually going on in the world. Gone would be all the spin and distortion that saturates the mass media today. The freedom of press is probably the most logical first step our country should take to achieve those means. From there, more average Americans would understand and lobby to further policies that support their best interests instead of the corporate elite's best interests.

 

[speed]

9/11 was the catalyst that started the unnecessary war on Iraq. Our troops have been sent to Iraq to fatten the pockets of the military equipment manufacturing moguls and oil industry giants. The wealthy corporate elite keep on getting wealthier while the society's underprivlileged in the armed forces are shipped out to their deaths. Meanwhile corporate giants that own the mass media in TV, magazines, newspapers relentlessly brainwash Americans, proclaiming it a war against terrorism when in reality we are the original perpetrators that started this whole mess.

Fastforward to present day, we are still at war for reasons that cannot be justified. Bush is still in the oval office, not yet impeached, like a puppet in the hands of corporate masterminds stringing him along with financial treats and promises whilst furthering their political agendas. The majority of Americans have since grown apathetic, preoccupied with their busy lives of making a living while free time is squandered away in front of the television watching the latest episode of "24".

We should re-write our constitution and pledge of allegiance as a worship of money. Money rules and dominates in a capitalistic society, while justice and liberty are pushed aside/trampled/desecrated/torched.

I concur with this statement, and am utterly confused as to how DE interpreted said statements as a promotion of socialism.

I think one of your main arguments UnseenChaos is that capitalism is much more impotant in America than democracy, and that the war, and American policy is more or less set by corporate interests, not the constituents.

How will you "help the underprivileged" whilst remaining capitalist? Even if you don't remain capitalist, how will you help the underprivileged? How are you going to restrict corporate ownership of the media--especially whilst claiming to be capitalist? How will making the media "independent" (how is the current media not independent? Independent of what?) eradicate bias? How does the US not have freedom of the press?

Do you really think corporations are the reason the population at large aren't politicised? I'm pretty sure it's because they are, for the most part, uneducated morons. You make out that your average American really wants to be involved in the political process but feels put off by "the corporate elite" (whoever the fuck they are)? Nobody cares about "the corporate elite" apart from a few sandal-wearing college students. Get real.

America has lots of problems. America's political system has lots of problems. Your solutions, however, suck. Anyone can reel off a list of things they'd like to see in their ideal society, but it isn't remotely realistic or useful--and yours is quite frankly contradictory.

I totally disagree with your criticism here. The public has obviously been manipulated by the White House and the media. Can one imagine the uproar there'd be, if the journalists were allowed to show pictures of Americans and Iraqi's mangeled and dying everyday? Or if they had real facts etc, to provide? This is no longer the case. It was in Vietnam, and the Government learned its lesson.

Also, the corporations do run the country. Tell me how they dont? Everyone knows the power lobbyists yield. I'm just dumbfounded how anyone could not see it. Who do you think gets the defense contracts? My god, Kellogg, Brown and Root, is making billions providing just basic services to the Army in Iraq (for fuck sakes, they launder the clothes and clean the toilets even). The question becomes, does one think its a good thing to have such insanely profitable companies, profiting essentially from the last fifty years of militant American foreign policy (forcing free trade) as well as incredibly liberal tax breaks and almost no monopoly and merger laws. They're setting policy, and we're paying to support them, and yet they give the American public far, far less in return by way of jobs, taxes, investment into local communities.

Furthermore, just last night, after 5 years of lies, Bush admitted Iraq had no ties to Al Quaida. Now, what is the average person supposed to think, when the government and the media, has been telling him Iraq supported terrorism and Al Quaida? Many citizens still trust the government, or truly used to think they really were trying to catch the terrorists.

I do agree however that Americans are not very politically astute, nor do they have much understanding of history, foreign relations, basic geography etc. Anyone with half a brain and a little knowledge, knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, that corruption and greed runs this country and so forth.

 

[The Bringer]

America is a "democracy" and more than half of The People living in the "democracy" do not like the government that THEY PUT THERE. The People of America have the right to over through the government and put in place someone they think can achieve what they want.

Funny, last night on TV the president of Finland stated that exact thing. If the people of Finland were ever not pleased with the direction the country was going in they have every right to walk into that office and throw her out.

Sadly so much power has been given to Bush that it could not happen. Those who tried to do that would be labelled as terrorists. Now tell me, is that a democracy?

 

[fah-q]

9/11 was the catalyst that started the unnecessary war on Iraq. Our troops have been sent to Iraq to fatten the pockets of the military equipment manufacturing moguls and oil industry giants. The wealthy corporate elite keep on getting wealthier while the society's underprivlileged in the armed forces are shipped out to their deaths. Meanwhile corporate giants that own the mass media in TV, magazines, newspapers relentlessly brainwash Americans, proclaiming it a war against terrorism when in reality we are the original perpetrators that started this whole mess.Help me gain some understanding here. Are you saying that we did things that led to 4 airplanes being hijacked ran into buildings and the ground? Lately I find myself questioning our presence in Iraq more and more. I do not believe that men and women are being put in harms way to fatten the pockets of companies with gov't contracts and oil moguls. Society's underpriveleged joined the military willingly and under no duress to do so. I think the perception of our military's purpose is askew. You join the military to protect your country. One of the few "perks" of doing so, is gaining marketable skills and/or getting an education. It is not the other way around.

Fastforward to present day, we are still at war for reasons that cannot be justified. Bush is still in the oval office, not yet impeached, like a puppet in the hands of corporate masterminds stringing him along with financial treats and promises whilst furthering their political agendas. The majority of Americans have since grown apathetic, preoccupied with their busy lives of making a living while free time is squandered away in front of the television watching the latest episode of "24".
It is possible that we are mistaking apathy for trust. It is possible that Americans, although not completely happy with, actually do trust their government. There is much more to our gov't than just George Bush and the perception of failure by those who aren't fond of him.
We should re-write our constitution and pledge of allegiance as a worship of money. Money rules and dominates in a capitalistic society, while justice and liberty are pushed aside/trampled/desecrated/torched.

If we re-write the Pledge of Allegiance, can we keep the word "god"?

 

[fah-q]

America is a "democracy" and more than half of The People living in the "democracy" do not like the government that THEY PUT THERE. The People of America have the right to over through the government and put in place someone they think can achieve what they want.

Funny, last night on TV the president of Finland stated that exact thing. If the people of Finland were ever not pleased with the direction the country was going in they have every right to walk into that office and throw her out.

Sadly so much power has been given to Bush that it could not happen. Those who tried to do that would be labelled as terrorists. Now tell me, is that a democracy?

Bush has no more power than any President that preceeded him. The problems with the current form of gov't goes beyond President Bush. Seriously, the problems in America did not just come out of nowhere in the past 5+ years.

 

[speed]

Bush has no more power than any President that preceeded him. The problems with the current form of gov't goes beyond President Bush. Seriously, the problems in America did not just come out of nowhere in the past 5+ years.

Very true. Presidential power has greatly expanded since WWII. However, in the last 10 years, and esepcially with the Bush administration, lobbyist power has reached untold proportions, not to mention the number of lobbyists has more than doubled within this time period. It seems lobbyists are directing every policy, every aspect of government, and even our war efforts. This is the real threat to democracy and America--especially as lobby groups are increasingly sponsered by private corportations and ideological interests that do not reflect the American populace on both the left and right.

And lets not forget, Bush and his whole administration is incredibly entrenched in this power structure.

 

[fah-q]

Good point. I did not consider the lobbyists. It just seems that all fingers are pointed at George when there truly are so many other places to point them.

 

[speed]

Good point. I did not consider the lobbyists. It just seems that all fingers are pointed at George when there truly are so many other places to point them.

I think the lobbyists became a major player in all realms of policy (besides the defense industry as before) and government starting with Reagan, continuing with Bush I, and then hitting a massive explosion with Clinton and now Bush II.

 

[The Bringer]

Bush has no more power than any President that preceeded him. The problems with the current form of gov't goes beyond President Bush. Seriously, the problems in America did not just come out of nowhere in the past 5+ years.

I never said that Bush was the problem. What I was pointing out was the Acts that were approved after 9/11. If you do research on the history of America you can trace evidence back to almost the American Revolutions (and some cases you actually can though I've found very little information) of just who runs America and how they are involved in very major event/catastrophy/war America has been involved with.

 

[BloodSword]

Bush has no more power than any President that preceeded him. The problems with the current form of gov't goes beyond President Bush. Seriously, the problems in America did not just come out of nowhere in the past 5+ years.

America, it seems has become a huge corporation, more so, than a country. While, I agree with most of the negative statements railed against the Bush administration, it goes deeper. The Clinton administration has just as much culpability in the war on terrorism. From my reading, Clinton, Secretary of State Madeline Albright and Sandy Berger head of the NSA were more concerned with the political fall-out of commiting to a war, and the killing of Bin Laden. There were at least 2 chances to take Bin Laden out during that time frame, 1997-1998. Neither time was the order given. The Clinton people would'nt even help the Northern Alliance in Afganistan(Moosoud). I believe their indecision and "cowardly" judgements led to 9/11. This is in no way excusing Bush and his people for their poor decision making. But, I must agree with Bush on one element, that being, this war is being fought on Iraq soil, not in our homeland. For all the innocent people who were killed on 9/11, we as Americans, MUST ALWAYS honour their memory. You are not an American if you don't. Period. There are a lot of things wrong with America, but I tell you this, I would not want to live anywhere else. .

 

[The Bringer]

Why would you not want to live anywhere else? I spent 23.5 years in Western Canada and when I "got out" I looked back at my life in Canada and couldn't believe what I was doing.

 

[speed]

America, it seems has become a huge corporation, more so, than a country. While, I agree with most of the negative statements railed against the Bush administration, it goes deeper. The Clinton administration has just as much culpability in the war on terrorism. From my reading, Clinton, Secretary of State Madeline Albright and Sandy Berger head of the NSA were more concerned with the political fall-out of commiting to a war, and the killing of Bin Laden. There were at least 2 chances to take Bin Laden out during that time frame, 1997-1998. Neither time was the order given. The Clinton people would'nt even help the Northern Alliance in Afganistan(Moosoud). I believe their indecision and "cowardly" judgements led to 9/11. This is in no way excusing Bush and his people for their poor decision making. But, I must agree with Bush on one element, that being, this war is being fought on Iraq soil, not in our homeland. For all the innocent people who were killed on 9/11, we as Americans, MUST ALWAYS honour their memory. You are not an American if you don't. Period. There are a lot of things wrong with America, but I tell you this, I would not want to live anywhere else. .

First, have you been out of the country? I mean, apart from the economic freedom and opportunity one has here, life is so much better and freer in Europe, and more exciting in Latin and South American. I dont know about Asia and Africa, as Ive never been there. My point being, besides a nostalgic love for the principles of America, the quality of life in quite a few countries, is much higher. More vacation, better retirement, better food, health, environment, architecture, some countries have more attractive women on average; i could go on and on.

This whole thing goes further back than Clinton...centuries really. But in modern terms, its obvious the British deserve much of the blame--their map drawing skills, giving a arab country to the jews, hell, they set up the Saudi government!

And then we go back to Iran, in the 50's Mossadegh nationalized British Petroleum, the British became angered, got Eisenhower to send the CIA in, and topple this popularly elected leader (Mossadegh), Operation Ajax--its real history not conspiracy, you can read about it. They set up the Shah, and continued to support his very repressive regime until the Islamic revolution, which caused a war with Iraq and Hussein to stop his Shiites from joining the Revolution. We decided to support Iraq, and did so until he betrayed us before his little Kuwaiti expedition--which threatened Saudi Arabia, our loyal ally in oil trading (and a corrupt regime Bin Laden wished to topple, especially with their alliance with the infidel west).

So you see, this is the background on Iraq.

Plus, you have out invasions of Lebanon, and the Israeli invasions, our failed economic liberalization programs in Jordan especially, our support of Mubharik in Egypt despite popular support to see him go, we meddled in Libya to cause Gaddhafi to rise to power, the whole pan-arab movement looked to the USSR for assistance as we supported Israel, I mean if one does just basic research of the real history, you'd figure out we're as much at fault as anyone in this whole terrorism outburst.

 

[SoundMaster]

America, it seems has become a huge corporation, more so, than a country. While, I agree with most of the negative statements railed against the Bush administration, it goes deeper. The Clinton administration has just as much culpability in the war on terrorism. From my reading, Clinton, Secretary of State Madeline Albright and Sandy Berger head of the NSA were more concerned with the political fall-out of commiting to a war, and the killing of Bin Laden. There were at least 2 chances to take Bin Laden out during that time frame, 1997-1998. Neither time was the order given. The Clinton people would'nt even help the Northern Alliance in Afganistan(Moosoud). I believe their indecision and "cowardly" judgements led to 9/11. This is in no way excusing Bush and his people for their poor decision making. But, I must agree with Bush on one element, that being, this war is being fought on Iraq soil, not in our homeland. For all the innocent people who were killed on 9/11, we as Americans, MUST ALWAYS honour their memory. You are not an American if you don't. Period. There are a lot of things wrong with America, but I tell you this, I would not want to live anywhere else. .

You make some valid points, but make no mistake about the fact that while the main theater of war is being fought in Iraq, it will surely hit America again (as it has IN England, IN Spain, etc. - other nations with troops fighting in Iraq). If nothing else, the Iraq war has increased the likelyhood of future 9/11s. Again, the evidence in Europe (said attacks) proves that it's likely.

Also, Qaeda has set the precedent already for long intervals of time between attacks. 9/11 came 8 years after the first attempt. Does that time period imply Clinton was preventing multitudes of attacks or, rather, that Qaeda plots and plans every last detail (and require learning, training, financing, etc. to carry them out?). I believe it's the latter.

The single BEST move we've made - which no one ever discusses - is the removal of US military presence from Saudi Arabia. THIS was Qaeda's biggest gripe with us - and with the "apostate" Suadi Royal family - since day 1. I often wonder if the US made the decision to vacate the Holy Land or if Arabia made the decision for us.

 

[OldScratch]

First, have you been out of the country? I mean, apart from the economic freedom and opportunity one has here, life is so much better and freer in Europe, and more exciting in Latin and South American. I dont know about Asia and Africa, as Ive never been there. My point being, besides a nostalgic love for the principles of America, the quality of life in quite a few countries, is much higher. More vacation, better retirement, better food, health, environment, architecture, some countries have more attractive women on average; i could go on and on.

This whole thing goes further back than Clinton...centuries really. But in modern terms, its obvious the British deserve much of the blame--their map drawing skills, giving a arab country to the jews, hell, they set up the Saudi government!

And then we go back to Iran, in the 50's Mossadegh nationalized British Petroleum, the British became angered, got Eisenhower to send the CIA in, and topple this popularly elected leader (Mossadegh), Operation Ajax--its real history not conspiracy, you can read about it. They set up the Shah, and continued to support his very repressive regime until the Islamic revolution, which caused a war with Iraq and Hussein to stop his Shiites from joining the Revolution. We decided to support Iraq, and did so until he betrayed us before his little Kuwaiti expedition--which threatened Saudi Arabia, our loyal ally in oil trading (and a corrupt regime Bin Laden wished to topple, especially with their alliance with the infidel west).

So you see, this is the background on Iraq.

Plus, you have out invasions of Lebanon, and the Israeli invasions, our failed economic liberalization programs in Jordan especially, our support of Mubharik in Egypt despite popular support to see him go, we meddled in Libya to cause Gaddhafi to rise to power, the whole pan-arab movement looked to the USSR for assistance as we supported Israel, I mean if one does just basic research of the real history, you'd figure out we're as much at fault as anyone in this whole terrorism outburst.

I agree with much of what you have written here. But the first paragraph troubles me. In what way specificially, is Europe "freer" than America? In many countires their firearms ownership laws are draconian.(Some like Switzerland are not). Much of Europe employs Orwellian "Hate Speech" codes of one variety or another, that are stunningly regressive. A number of men are incarcerated in Germany and Austria for daring to criticize the accepted orthodoxy on the Jewish Holocaust, etc. Some may find their conclusions repugnant...but criminal? This is freedom-history that cannot be questioned?
Sensitivity may(or may not) be desirable...but at what cost?
Beyond that, there is a great deal of "excitement" in Latin/South America that I will pass on, thank you. Moreover, a remarkable number of people seem willing to risk life and limb to come to the USA from Latin America, and a quick scan of the destitution common to those areas is reason enough to question just how exciting their lives are.
I am no jingoistic flag-waver for America - there is much wrong here. Still, it is easy to develop a "grass is greener" position, that is not necessarily realistic in every respect. For what it is worth, I believe Europe in many ways, is advanced beyond what many Americans would even believe(I think of Scandanavia, for instance). Still, the US and Europe have good and bad in each, and I'm not sure I am willing to declare the Old Country that far ahead yet.

 

[hypocrisy86]

In USA we can own weapons alot and all
But in Europe when i was there for a while (Germany,Switzerland and Czech republic) i did feel more free than that of USA.

I saw lots of happy people in Europe everywhere i went
While i was in Germany, i stayed in Munich for some days
Went to the Beer Garden Loved it

Then on-to Czech Republic lots of nude window dancing chicks
I never knew they were all manly type of women, no offense.

Switzerland owned, all i wanted to do was go to local Bakery places
Saw a huge ass Chocolate bar. for 80 Euros

I even bought CDs i couldnt find here in USA or on ebay in Prague
Hypocrisy stuff, VNV Nation and Wumpscut stuff

If i had the money and all id definitely move to Europe.

 

[BloodSword]

Yes, for those interested I have been out of the U.S.A. And being in other places, while being nice and enjoyable, the U.S. is just better, IMO(remember my opinion, that's all. I also believe my sentiments are patriotic. I have served this country and believe in it's ideals. When this country's back is to the wall, Americans are capable of some incredible things. This present government surely can be accused of atrocious misdealings throughout the world. But, the strong and courageous deeds performed by everyday Americans(examples abound) is what makes the U.S. a great country. I'm sure if I was living on the French riviera, sipping fine wine and enjoying the cool breeze, I too would want to stay. Especially and without a doubt if my partner was Catherine Zeta Jones, that alone would keep me there forever. On second thought, if I was in Anartica with her I would stay for as long as I could. Seriously, My feelings are simply about home. America is MY HOME and I appreciate that I am a citizen, more importantly I love my country. Now, that may seem corny to some, but it is how I feel. Peace.

 

[speed]

UnseenChaos proposed a system where the government would control the economy (preventing large corporations from doing certain things) in order to promote equality and remove class differences. If you'd like to explain how that isn't an inherently and absolutely socialist system of government, I'm all ears.



America was founded on capitalism, though ("life, liberty and property", anyone?). All of the founding fathers were liberal (in the classical sense) and the constitution paints a picture of a government that leaves the individual and the economy well alone. And yet the problems you complain of are very much of the 20th and 21st centuries. What changed

Incidentally, were America more in line with the capitalist vision of the founding fathers, none of this would happen; the government would be so limited as to not have the money or influence for the supposed military-industrial complex (and the prison-industrial complex, etc.) to exist. It's only since the socialist reforms of FDR that your government has expanded--in size and spending--to the point where corporate cronyism is a problem.



Feel free to wear your tinfoil hat, just don't expect others to give your ridiculous ideas any respect. The media is constantly at odds with the government, has no fear of criticising the latter's policy and in fact does so to a point where it is frequently accused of having a leftist slant. How does that point to the media being controlled by the government, as you appear to be insinuating



Lobbyists exploit a necessary system, and there is no way around it. I would rather have lobbyists weilding the considerable influence that they do than a government impervious to public opinion. Without the ability to lobby, governments shut themselves away from public opinion--deliberately or no--and there is no way of creation a lobbying system that is not open to exploitation by the rich and influential.

Also, who would you like massive defense contracts to go to, if not corporations large enough to meet said contracts' demands



Larger companies = more jobs, increased profits = increased taxes, and investment into local communities isn't the responsibility of corporations by any stretch of the imagination.



I'm pretty sure the media dispelled the Iraq/al-Q link about 10 minutes after Bush first said it. Seriously, how else did you know that Iraq had no ties to al-Qaeda if not from the media?

I really want to know what news outlets you watch/read to see this slant that just isn't there.



Corruption and greed run the US in the same way that they run every country and have run every organised group since the dawn of time. Good luck changing human nature.

We have very obvious differences in opinion, which makes for a good argument/discussion.

As for your first point about Capitalism, I remind you that the Capitalism of the late 18th century, was much different than the Capitalism of today. Indeed, if one actually reads Adam Smith, he would be firmly opposed to the massive corporations and oligarchies our government supports today.

You lobbyist position is terribly idealistic and naive. The time in which lobbyists actually did represent some segment of the population is over. I ask, do you actually believe lobbying groups have the best interests of any segment of the American population besides their own stakeholders at heart? How do you answer to the thousands of lobbyists who used to work for the government and pentagon, now legally lobbying, and then, going back to government in the case of Cheney? Thats just terribly corrupt, and and serves no one but the former politician/pentagon official's bank account.

I think everyone knows how corrupt the defense industry is. Do you not remember Eisenhower's warning of the military industrial complex? Even Eisenhower couldnt control it in the 1950's, and he was a 5 star General. Doesnt it seem odd to you that we've been imbroiled in essentially continual warfare since WWII? Who does that serve? I dont think its a conspiracy anymore.

The media has dramatically changed. Do you turn on the T.V.? Did you watch news coverage on the IRaq war? How about now? Is there any real investigative reporting on whats going on over there? Do we see bodies? Do we instead get talking heads and unsusbtantiated opinions?

As for larger companies. Larger companies only produce new jobs, by spinning off new jobs through subcontracting to smaller companies who spring up to supply them etc. I think we all realize how lean large companies have become in terms of labor costs in their United States offices. I also think we all realize the tax breaks they receive are ridiculous. I also think its obvious they are reaping record profits due to the favorable structue they've been granted by the U.S. government and our tax payer dollars, yet they have yet to increase wages or hiring. And as for local communty investment, every community needs at least one of these large companies for the spin off jobs it creates--the economic clusters, and the resulting multiplier effect. I do this for a living for godssakes. The problem has become the big companies are leaving many cities, or are being bought up by even bigger companies. This really impacts any area where this happens. The entire midwest is a perfect example.

I dont think the media disspelled any myth about 9/11 and Iraw. Only talking heads, and some negative reports doubted the connection, the rest of the media showed Bush's and Cheny's constant claims there was a connection. It was only around now, the full-out blitz has occurred. I mean, are we living in the same country? I think Im seeing the same mass-media news you are.

Obviously corruption and greed are the cornerstones of government. But I think my contention, and many others, is that corruption and greed have becomes so blatant and powerful in our once somewhat respectable land, that we've truly hit a tipping point--a point of no return. Pardon me and others for noticing this, and wanting something better.

 

[Justin S.]

I agree with much of what you have written here. But the first paragraph troubles me. In what way specificially, is Europe "freer" than America? In many countires their firearms ownership laws are draconian.(Some like Switzerland are not). Much of Europe employs Orwellian "Hate Speech" codes of one variety or another, that are stunningly regressive. A number of men are incarcerated in Germany and Austria for daring to criticize the accepted orthodoxy on the Jewish Holocaust, etc. Some may find their conclusions repugnant...but criminal? This is freedom-history that cannot be questioned?
Sensitivity may(or may not) be desirable...but at what cost?
Beyond that, there is a great deal of "excitement" in Latin/South America that I will pass on, thank you. Moreover, a remarkable number of people seem willing to risk life and limb to come to the USA from Latin America, and a quick scan of the destitution common to those areas is reason enough to question just how exciting their lives are.
I am no jingoistic flag-waver for America - there is much wrong here. Still, it is easy to develop a "grass is greener" position, that is not necessarily realistic in every respect. For what it is worth, I believe Europe in many ways, is advanced beyond what many Americans would even believe(I think of Scandanavia, for instance). Still, the US and Europe have good and bad in each, and I'm not sure I am willing to declare the Old Country that far ahead yet.

Excellent post, OldScratch.

(and Im one who often considers moving to Germany for a variety of reasons)

 

[SoundMaster]

We have very obvious differences in opinion, which makes for a good argument/discussion.

As for your first point about Capitalism, I remind you that the Capitalism of the late 18th century, was much different than the Capitalism of today. Indeed, if one actually reads Adam Smith, he would be firmly opposed to the massive corporations and oligarchies our government supports today.

You lobbyist position is terribly idealistic and naive. The time in which lobbyists actually did represent some segment of the population is over. I ask, do you actually believe lobbying groups have the best interests of any segment of the American population besides their own stakeholders at heart? How do you answer to the thousands of lobbyists who used to work for the government and pentagon, now legally lobbying, and then, going back to government in the case of Cheney? Thats just terribly corrupt, and and serves no one but the former politician/pentagon official's bank account.

I think everyone knows how corrupt the defense industry is. Do you not remember Eisenhower's warning of the military industrial complex? Even Eisenhower couldnt control it in the 1950's, and he was a 5 star General. Doesnt it seem odd to you that we've been imbroiled in essentially continual warfare since WWII? Who does that serve? I dont think its a conspiracy anymore.

The media has dramatically changed. Do you turn on the T.V.? Did you watch news coverage on the IRaq war? How about now? Is there any real investigative reporting on whats going on over there? Do we see bodies? Do we instead get talking heads and unsusbtantiated opinions?

As for larger companies. Larger companies only produce new jobs, by spinning off new jobs through subcontracting to smaller companies who spring up to supply them etc. I think we all realize how lean large companies have become in terms of labor costs in their United States offices. I also think we all realize the tax breaks they receive are ridiculous. I also think its obvious they are reaping record profits due to the favorable structue they've been granted by the U.S. government and our tax payer dollars, yet they have yet to increase wages or hiring. And as for local communty investment, every community needs at least one of these large companies for the spin off jobs it creates--the economic clusters, and the resulting multiplier effect. I do this for a living for godssakes. The problem has become the big companies are leaving many cities, or are being bought up by even bigger companies. This really impacts any area where this happens. The entire midwest is a perfect example.

I dont think the media disspelled any myth about 9/11 and Iraw. Only talking heads, and some negative reports doubted the connection, the rest of the media showed Bush's and Cheny's constant claims there was a connection. It was only around now, the full-out blitz has occurred. I mean, are we living in the same country? I think Im seeing the same mass-media news you are.

Obviously corruption and greed are the cornerstones of government. But I think my contention, and many others, is that corruption and greed have becomes so blatant and powerful in our once somewhat respectable land, that we've truly hit a tipping point--a point of no return. Pardon me and others for noticing this, and wanting something better.

Goddamned excellent post.

And you're right: today's American mainstream media is nothing more than fluff, for the most part. True investigative reporting is virtually non-existant (at least via the mainstream media). The Iraq war is a terrible example of this.

Ironically, one of America's most effective investigative journalists, Greg Palast, has to report from Britain through the BBC. None of the major US outlets will promote him. Truth is bad for ratings.