Thoughts on 9/11 and Democracy (all Americans read)

"Sorry, but I think America is just a joke...I love the fact that if I'm smart enough I can break the laws..."

How can you have even a remotely intelligent conversation with somebody who celebrates that? People like that give Americans a bad name, not people who have a little nationalism running through their veins. People w/pride in this country can't stand what you say or how pretentious your opinions are, but if it came down to it they'd be the first to fight for your right to say it.

I deleted that big post the other day because, well, what's the point? What's there to stress over? Somebody who would write what Brent wrote is either 1.) not old enough to vote 2.) doesn't have his shit enough together to even find the closest voting booth if he was 18+, or 3.) would probably vote for the green party "let's legalize pot" candidate who, even at 10pm on a Saturday night, could never get more than 5% of the popular vote anyways.

On top of that, whether you like Bush or not, lately it's "en vogue" for people to say "Fuck Bush!". Usually it's followed by something equally intelligent like, "No more war in Iraq!". This administration has made some major mistakes in Iraq...that's not even debatable...but being there is not one of them. For those that wanna tuck tale and head home, look back ten years to Somalia. 18 Army Rangers go down and Clinton pulls out all 10,000+ troops after the media repeatedly airs footage of dead US servicemen being dragged through the street of Magadishu. American viewers became depressed, not empowered. To this day Al Queda uses that example as a battle cry...kill one and they all go home. They remind each other that the soul-less US politicians will always act in mindless accordance w/public opinion polls. That's the justification behind the bombing of the USS Cole and the twin bombings of the US Embassies is Africa.

For some reason in America people see Rodney King, a convicted repeat felon and womanizer, getting beat and they get hella pissed, break windows, burn down buildings, attack innocent people, and think every cop's a power hungry fuck. But people see 18 and 19 year old US infantrymen getting shot at, coming home with one leg, or even coming home in boxes and they become divisive and distrustfull of our military. It's the easy way to go. People are always looking for the easy way out. It's the lowest common denominator. If you are like that you have plenty of company.

And to panzerOx...that guy from Oslo...I'm glad you disagree w/me. Pissing off a European during a political discussion is like a litmus test. If you've done a good job of it then you know you must have really said something politically and socially sound. You of all people should know better though. Of all nations in this world that could have benefited from a timely dose of nationalism I'd have to put Norway at the top of the list. But your contrymen like Vidkun Quisling (much like the modern left wing "down w/the borders" radicals in the US right now) chose to take it in the ass and appease the enemy rather than fight it because it was the easy thing to do. And now you tell me "nationalism" is the enemy. It looks like they don't teach much history in Norwegian schools.
 
Steiner said:
"Sorry, but I think America is just a joke...I love the fact that if I'm smart enough I can break the laws..."

How can you have even a remotely intelligent conversation with somebody who celebrates that? People like that give Americans a bad name, not people who have a little nationalism running through their veins. People w/pride in this country can't stand what you say or how pretentious your opinions are, but if it came down to it they'd be the first to fight for your right to say it.

I deleted that big post the other day because, well, what's the point? What's there to stress over? Somebody who would write what Brent wrote is either 1.) not old enough to vote 2.) doesn't have his shit enough together to even find the closest voting booth if he was 18+, or 3.) would probably vote for the green party "let's legalize pot" candidate who, even at 10pm on a Saturday night, could never get more than 5% of the popular vote anyways.

On top of that, whether you like Bush or not, lately it's "en vogue" for people to say "Fuck Bush!". Usually it's followed by something equally intelligent like, "No more war in Iraq!". This administration has made some major mistakes in Iraq...that's not even debatable...but being there is not one of them. For those that wanna tuck tale and head home, look back ten years to Somalia. 18 Army Rangers go down and Clinton pulls out all 10,000+ troops after the media repeatedly airs footage of dead US servicemen being dragged through the street of Magadishu. American viewers became depressed, not empowered. To this day Al Queda uses that example as a battle cry...kill one and they all go home. They remind each other that the soul-less US politicians will always act in mindless accordance w/public opinion polls. That's the justification behind the bombing of the USS Cole and the twin bombings of the US Embassies is Africa.

Steiner, you're right about the first thing I said........I didn't explain that enough. When I mean break laws, I mean break bullshit laws that shouldn't be laws themselves. And please, PLEASE understand this...I don't mean to be a stereotypical Anti America wannabe rebel when I say this, but I'm talking about things like smoking pot. If tobacco fiends can spend over $50 on a product that kills 1/3 of the user earlier than the average life expetancy or alchoholics can dip into booze which kills 70,000 Americans every year, why the hell can't someone over 18/21 just smoke a joint. There is a thick, THICK line between the dangers of alchohol/cigarettes and the danger of marijuana.

Now, I am not afraid to admit this at all..I'm 16 years old. My reply to the thread really had nothing to do with voting or anything, it's just my views on this country. And if I WAS able to vote , I definitely wouldn't vote for an indepedent party candidate....it's just throwing your vote away. Even if I didn't like either the Democrat or Republican, I'd still vote for who I think would make a better president. And go ahead, if you want to post something like ' OMG ur a stupid little kid who doesnt no what he is talking about OMG LOL stoopid 16 year old", then go ahead, take your best shot. There are a lot of teengares out there who do dumb things and most people assume that they have no care for what is going on in the world and really don't know much about anything, but I'm different from those people. I KNOW what is going and I pay attention to my surroundings. Just look at Pyrus's fairly intelligent posts and you'd never guess that he was 16.

I cleary stated that I did not like the Bush Administration, but I didn't say anything stupid like " FUCK BUSH! NO WAR! NO WAR!" In fact, I find both anti war extremists and pro war exteremists annoying...if you have an opinion and you're agreeing with one of those, that's fine, but wasting your time walking around in bullsh protests that do not prove or change anything besides how much attention they get on the media.

Bulletride, I still respect America as a country. But if you're saying if I was a resident walked around Canada, Australia, or most European countries, and said how uch the countries sucked, I'd get shot for it? Things have changed in the last 100 years and America is not unique for it's Freedom of Speech amendment anymore...oh wait...I think it's FREEDOM OF THOUGHT.
 
~For the romping stomping elephants on here, when the American people stop all constructive criticism of the government then you should be worried. Or at least come up with something better than "Move someplace else if you don't like it!". It definately has that familiar ring of... nana nana nah nah! How original, that "love it or leave it" retoric which worked so well when it was first introduced several decades ago that made all the commie-fag-junkies move to Japan. Well guess what, no one left ever. Grow up or fuck up! How's that for a political slogan?
 
Brent said:
Steiner, you're right about the first thing I said........I didn't explain that enough. When I mean break laws, I mean break bullshit laws that shouldn't be laws themselves. And please, PLEASE understand this...I don't mean to be a stereotypical Anti America wannabe rebel when I say this, but I'm talking about things like smoking pot. If tobacco fiends can spend over $50 on a product that kills 1/3 of the user earlier than the average life expetancy or alchoholics can dip into booze which kills 70,000 Americans every year, why the hell can't someone over 18/21 just smoke a joint. There is a thick, THICK line between the dangers of alchohol/cigarettes and the danger of marijuana.

Now, I am not afraid to admit this at all..I'm 16 years old. My reply to the thread really had nothing to do with voting or anything, it's just my views on this country. And if I WAS able to vote , I definitely wouldn't vote for an indepedent party candidate....it's just throwing your vote away. Even if I didn't like either the Democrat or Republican, I'd still vote for who I think would make a better president. And go ahead, if you want to post something like ' OMG ur a stupid little kid who doesnt no what he is talking about OMG LOL stoopid 16 year old", then go ahead, take your best shot. There are a lot of teengares out there who do dumb things and most people assume that they have no care for what is going on in the world and really don't know much about anything, but I'm different from those people. I KNOW what is going and I pay attention to my surroundings. Just look at Pyrus's fairly intelligent posts and you'd never guess that he was 16.

I cleary stated that I did not like the Bush Administration, but I didn't say anything stupid like " FUCK BUSH! NO WAR! NO WAR!" In fact, I find both anti war extremists and pro war exteremists annoying...if you have an opinion and you're agreeing with one of those, that's fine, but wasting your time walking around in bullsh protests that do not prove or change anything besides how much attention they get on the media.

Bulletride, I still respect America as a country. But if you're saying if I was a resident walked around Canada, Australia, or most European countries, and said how uch the countries sucked, I'd get shot for it? Things have changed in the last 100 years and America is not unique for it's Freedom of Speech amendment anymore...oh wait...I think it's FREEDOM OF THOUGHT.

You'll grow out of the pot thing then, and let me tell you why. You're looking at one side of the coin. You're looking at what is good for you, but not looking at long term effects of a policy change. Alcohol is legal because it has been, and that's it. If alcohol was made illegal, people would revolt, there'd be a..... oh wait, it already happened, so I don't need to explain it. Same goes for cigarettes. Can you just shut down a multi billion dollar industry? That is an example of a government overstepping it's bounds. Marijuana has not been legal. Well, at least not since it gained national prominence. It was only legal years ago because no one knew what it was.

But, if you make it legal, it probably wouldn't change all that much. But how do you justify making a new law for just one drug? Twenty years later, the question becomes why can't speed be legal? It's the end effect of it that is the problem. You need to look a little longer term, and outside of your partying interests. It'd be great for me if there was no drinking and driving rule, would have saved me a few bucks and some hassle in life, but look to the long term. That's why people become more conservative as they age.

As for Australia, European countries, etc., you do have a point. Still, many European countries are not nearly as free as you'd think (look up German laws on fringe political parties for example). But nowhere in the world is bashing the ruling power such a fad as it is here. It is encouraged here. Many take the freedom for what it is, and feel they have to bash authority, or they aren't doing their duty. Speaking your mind constructively is one thing, saying America fucking sucks, as most 16 year olds say, is just naive. If nothing else, the economic freedom of this country has allowed these very 16 year olds to drive around in daddy's BMW as they bitch about another country.

One more point, we allow Australians, Europeans, even Middle Easterners from theocracy who have never known freedom, to come here and line the streets and protest, and still be protected by our laws. Do you think if you, an American, went to France and did the same they would hold you in such high regard? Maybe not shot, but you would run into some problems.
 
Akumojo Dracula X3 said:
~For the romping stomping elephants on here, when the American people stop all constructive criticism of the government then you should be worried. Or at least come up with something better than "Move someplace else if you don't like it!". It definately has that familiar ring of... nana nana nah nah! How original, that "love it or leave it" retoric which worked so well when it was first introduced several decades ago that made all the commie-fag-junkies move to Japan. Well guess what, no one left ever. Grow up or fuck up! How's that for a political slogan?

No one said anything about constructive criticism. Is "America is a joke" constructive criticism?

And ah... read up a couple posts. The issue of why one would say, "go someplace else then" is addressed several times. I realise you wanted to get your name in here, maybe give someone a laugh with the "commie-fag-junkies" line, but make sure you're on the same back chief.
 
Bulletride said:
You'll grow out of the pot thing then, and let me tell you why. You're looking at one side of the coin. You're looking at what is good for you, but not looking at long term effects of a policy change. Alcohol is legal because it has been, and that's it. If alcohol was made illegal, people would revolt, there'd be a..... oh wait, it already happened, so I don't need to explain it. Same goes for cigarettes. Can you just shut down a multi billion dollar industry? That is an example of a government overstepping it's bounds. Marijuana has not been legal. Well, at least not since it gained national prominence. It was only legal years ago because no one knew what it was.

No, it was legal until 1938. It was a profitable business, just like alchohol and cigarettes..it was sold in cigarette like packs. And they did know what it was...some guy or group called marijuana an " extremely dangerous and deadly drug!" therefore someone in the government decided to make it illegal...and in case you didn't know, it never has killed anyone besides the morons who drive while they are high.


Bulletride said:
But, if you make it legal, it probably wouldn't change all that much. But how do you justify making a new law for just one drug? Twenty years later, the question becomes why can't speed be legal? It's the end effect of it that is the problem. You need to look a little longer term, and outside of your partying interests. It'd be great for me if there was no drinking and driving rule, would have saved me a few bucks and some hassle in life, but look to the long term. That's why people become more conservative as they age.

The fact that I want it legal has nothing to do with partying interets. I think it should be legal because over 77 million americans a year admit to doing it. Nevermore's " Inside Four Walls" says it all...the police and FBI would be focused on SO much more serious crimes, and therefore more serious criminals would be easier caught. Sure, there is Cocaine, Heroine and other harder drugs but pot is still used and possessed by far the most. Let's not forget that some prescription drugs are more harmful and have more dangerous side effects than pot. My dad has a decent job wher ehe makes 80,000 a year and at 46 still proudly smokes pot and thinks it should be legal, but in all of the more intelligent ways like I stated.


Bulletride said:
As for Australia, European countries, etc., you do have a point. Still, many European countries are not nearly as free as you'd think (look up German laws on fringe political parties for example). But nowhere in the world is bashing the ruling power such a fad as it is here. It is encouraged here. Many take the freedom for what it is, and feel they have to bash authority, or they aren't doing their duty. Speaking your mind constructively is one thing, saying America fucking sucks, as most 16 year olds say, is just naive. If nothing else, the economic freedom of this country has allowed these very 16 year olds to drive around in daddy's BMW as they bitch about another country.

I drive a 93 Chevy Lumina that I bought with my own money.


Bulletride said:
One more point, we allow Australians, Europeans, even Middle Easterners from theocracy who have never known freedom, to come here and line the streets and protest, and still be protected by our laws. Do you think if you, an American, went to France and did the same they would hold you in such high regard? Maybe not shot, but you would run into some problems.

I can't deny that you make a great point there, and I do admit that saying the country is a joke was going a bit too far. I hope you and Steiner can see past the fact that I am 16 and see that unlike most people my age I can make a decent conversation about something political. And another thing, it's just hard for me to watch CNN without thinking that I am being brainwashed with media bias. Trust me, I reallly WISH I could believe everything I hear, I'm not trying to be a rebel, but my intuition just tells me not to believe everything America says.
 
Akumojo Dracula X3 said:
~For the romping stomping elephants on here, when the American people stop all constructive criticism of the government then you should be worried. Or at least come up with something better than "Move someplace else if you don't like it!". It definately has that familiar ring of... nana nana nah nah! How original, that "love it or leave it" retoric which worked so well when it was first introduced several decades ago that made all the commie-fag-junkies move to Japan. Well guess what, no one left ever. Grow up or fuck up! How's that for a political slogan?
I'm a registered Independant. In fact 100,000+ Californians have registered as Independants since the recall was announced earlier this summer. That seems to be a pretty solid indication that folks out west aren't identifying w/either the elephants or the donkeys.

Nobody here said that criticizing the gov't was off limits. Our country was founded by people that didn't trust gov't one bit. Bureaucratic cynicism is as American as apple pie. What personally pisses me off is the unfounded "the sky is falling" type criticism...like the paranoia being spread lately by the ACLU and Hollywood celebs about the Patriot Act. The claim that big bad Uncle Sam is out to watch every move the average Joe makes is pure sensationalism designed to get the attention of and scare America's simplest and youngest minds. It's like they're trying to start a panic attack, but never once do they read excerpts from the actual Patriot Act. It's public property...you can download it and read it on the internet for free. Instead they offer summary interpretations. Why? There are extensive checks and balances built into the Patriot act that are designed SPECIFICALLY to protect our civil liberties. Or how about the number one civil liberty this bill is designed to protect...the right to not be blown up by a bomb as you drive by an abortion clinic, or the right not to have your lungs fill up w/ricin gas at a football game or heavy metal concert.

Criticizing federal, state, or local gov't is done best at the ballot box. Click on this link if you wanna register to vote.

https://ssl.capwiz.com/congressorg/nvra/
 
@Steiner-That funny "little rich kid shit" is a damn hoot. I am 21 and work my ass off every fuckin day hand placing hottop(pavement) and all I see is half of the money I work for going straight down the tubes and into failed social programs, I AM DIRT FUCKING POOR, NO SAVINGS, AND LIVE IN A THIRD FLOOR APARTMENT. I know my shit because I have actuallly researched it and lived it (you'd be surprised at how one can live off of 124 bucks a week, saltines and milk sometimes tastes like actual cereal, but that was then), I have read more fucking books about political analysis and current political BS that I can't remember it all, read some Noam Chomsky, friend. You are being lied to and you KNOW IT. I just have the damn courage to tell people how I feel no matter what, I do not go out of my way to get into these discussions but I don't live my life to please others and when shit gets going, I plow through it.

@Bulletride-Now, Right now in this country, The Greatest Of All Countries, kids are fucking starving to death, more people are homeless than ever(this almost included me two years ago) and the disconnect between the government and its constituents is growing ever larger. Health care is virtually non existent to most Americans( I finally acquired some through work-LAST MONTH! ) and taxes are going into DEFENSE SPENDING for a war that HAS NO END! Do not be fooled, this is not a war on terror, it is a war for the bottom line-MONEY AND POWER! Geoge Bush and Bill Clinton alike do not give a shit for anyone but themselves, and I do not blame them, it is the animal/human thing to do. But something has to change.

@steiner and Bulletride-you guys can keep arguing about moot points, gun control, abortion, euthanasia, animal rights, legalizing pot, taxes and such are nothing compared to the systematic rape of the worlds most malleable resource-human beings.
 
I read plenty of Chomsky. I put myself through college stacking boxes for UPS in the middle of the night. I was pretty poor. Pretty much had rice or cup 'o noodles every night. My specialty was ketchup soup. Ingredients: A handfull of ketchup packets from McDonalds and some boiling water. Don't lecture me on the value of the dollar.

But keep in mind that America is the only country in the world w/fat poor people. What we easily call poor is more like, "he's got his so when do I get mine". I know there are folks up shit creek without a paddle, but REAL poverty doesn't exist in this country, and it probably hasn't since the 30's. Anybody who's starved to death in this country had a death wish. In my experience most people who claim to be poor are simply living beyond their means. Smart people don't complain about how expensive living in the city is...they move to the valley. I'm not judging you. I worked construction for a few summers too. I hated it. The only thing that got me up in the morning was thinking about the pinch of chew I was gonna have after my coffee on the drive to work. It was simple pleasures like that made that fucking job bearable. Eventually I found another job. Sounds like you might wanna do the same thing dude.

No matter how much money you make Uncle Sam is always gonna get at least 15%-20% out of every paycheck. After state and local you can add another 10%-15%. It sucks but Europeans give 50% to the powers that be.
 
Brent,
1938 was a different time, and much, much more importantly Marijuana was a different drug. Put a joint from today in the hands of a 1938 pot smoker and they'd think you gave them opium. Stuff today is 100s of times stronger than it was back then. As for who it's killed, how many people have OD'd on acid. You know, died from the physical effect of it? That doesn't mean it's not bad, but it's something that doesn't kill physically. And to be honest, I'm not going to argue about the effects of marijuana. I don't think it's that bad. I don't even think it's the gateway drug it was pinned to be. But legalizing it is a gateway to the legalization of much harsher drugs.

77 million Americans admit to a lot of things. I'm not going to speak for anyone on this board, but think about the things that are illegal that more than half the population would act in. I'll stamp a guarantee on it that more than 77 million Americans drive 75 on the freeway. Does that mean the speed limit should be raised to 75? More than half of the 20 year olds drink, well over half.... does that mean the drinking age should be lowered? More than half of men find 17 and 3/4 year old girls attractive..... should we lower the statutory rape laws? Once again Brent, think long term.

Steiner,
Glad you brought up the Patriot Act. I'd like to know, of those of you saying the country sucks, the Bush Administration sucks, Ashcroft is a criminal, etc...... how many of you have read, front to back, the actual Patriot Act? Before you join the mass hysteria over something like this, please read it and be informed. And at the same time, think about what has happened, and what can happen to the country in the event of a terrorist attack, and tell me the best interest of the nation is not at heart. It's so easy to talk about the abuse of power, but gentlemen, when was the last terrorist attack? For a group of terrorists that promised waves of attacks on the U.S., we must have done something right. Nothing since 9/11 on our soil. Never forget that as you wonder why we have these policies. If they weren't there, and the Sears Tower collapsed or the Golden Gate Bridge took 5,000 people down with it, would you then say Bush wasn't hard enough on terrorism? Please people, be sure you know what you're wishing for before you make that wish.

AJDeath,
I think that rich kid shit was mine, not Steiners. It wasn't calling anyone a rich kid here. Read it again, it's an analogy. It's about taking things for granted when you have everything on your plate. Rich kid's do it. And in global personalities, Americans do it. So many 20 year olds, rich or poor, take for granted the incredible advantages they have by living here. I won't get into it. Please read my earlier posts about it, because it's explained quite well there.

As for the poor American part, I think Steiner answered that. Poor here, well, that's rich to a Somalian. Who in America starves to death? Show me the last American case of an American death by starvation. Bums eat more than a quarter of the world's population. And if you want to get global, who feeds those people? Most from you viewpoint bitch about the starving at home, but at the same time insist it's our job to help the Rwandans dying of hunger. We already account for half of the world's aid, so what more should we do?

If it's a war for money and power, how come we aren't controlling the oil in Iraq? I'm sure as hell not getting a tax break because of our new oil supplies in our colony Iraq! What power are we getting out of Afghanistan? I'm sorry AJDeath, but you're arguing a Cold War relic. It's not 1983 anymore.

And as for the last line of your post, purely emotional BS. America does more for the world population (i.e. aid) than anyone else. We are therefore not systematically raping humans. We are their welfare providers..... much more than we or anyone should be.
 
MindInsane said:
Well...I love this counrtry. I can do whatever the fuck I want..whenever I want. My country is great..my life is great...I can go hiking anywhere I want..I can go to a killer concert once or twice a month ( or more) I can take a road trip to a killer national park

And don't forget, we can vote for whomever we want too, albeit a porn star or a movie star........... :tickled: :tickled: