A few questions....

[Youowemeapony]

Hey everybody, I've been lurking on the forum for a while now, and I figured I'd join up and ask a few questions that have been on my mind for a while.

These are all essentially equipment questions, so before I start, I'll go ahead and give a run down of my setup.

Athlon 64 3000+ PC running Windows XP
Digi 002r
M-audio Octane 8 Channel pre/converter
Alesis M1 MK2 Monitors
Oktava MC-012 overheads
d6 kick, d2 toms, sm57 or d1 on snare
studio projects C1 for most vocals

ok there ya have it. kinda the cheapest setup i could get and still record drums effectively.

1) Pre amps. I've never heard the difference between a stock Digi 002 pre and something like a Neve or API. Since I'm broke as hell, I obviously can't afford nice pre's, but I'd really like to at least know what I'm missing. I know several companies offer audio cd's with raw clips of their pre's, but theres a lot of variable factors in the samples, such as equipment, mic position, room, etc... it's hard to tell how much better it would sound with my gear, my room and my positioning methods. Basically, I'm under the impression that good Pres take the mud out stuff, and give it more clarity and definition. I could be very wrong though. I've been looking at other options for pre's and I'm thinking that once I get the money, I might get a few RNP's. My question then is... if I have nice pre's and still run them through the octane as my D/A converter, are they still gonna sound like shit?

2) Drums. I've read extensively on drum mic position, and messed around with positions, tracking and A/B'ing until I seriously couldn't stand it. There's no magic solution to make your drums sound incredible before mixing. What I want to hear is someone that gets great present, tight, popping drums to post a sample of a raw track, so I can tell where I'm going wrong. I'd like to think I know what I'm doing as far as positions go, and I'm assuming that I'm just not super experienced with mixing, and that might be the source of my troubles. Right now, there's obviously no way to tell.

3) D6 on guitar cabs. Lately I've been recording lots of generic metalcore bands that all tune down to B or A and want super heavy bassy guitar tone. So, rather than cranking the bass on the cab and having my SM57 freak out and get all boomy and retarded, I turn the bass on the cab down, and slap a D6 on the cab towards the edge of the cone. Then I also use the 57 to catch more mids and top end. Usually I do a low pass on the D6 around 400, and put it lower in the mix than the 57, and I'm surprizingly happy with the tone, for being a relative newb when it comes to metal tone. Anyone else ever try this?


Ok, if anyone took the time to actually read all that, I'm impressed. Sorry its so long.. once I get going, I don't stop.

- Kevin

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Obviously you probably know this but I think a lot of the pop you're going to get out of the toms and snare will come during the mixing process when you compress them. Did you check out Andy's drum samples?

Also, I'm with you on your first point, I've never had an opportunity to a/b a nice preamp with my 001, I'm really curious to hear what the difference is.

 

[Youowemeapony]

I checked out andy's samples, and I'm blown away.

I don't even understand how to get that much crack and presence out of my raw tracks. I'm pretty sure its not even possible.

I have waves renaissance plugs, and I use the Rcomp, and while I realize it's not the best comp out there, it just seems like its impossible to get good drum sounds using it. I've seriously played around with attack and release settings until I couldn't take it, and I never found any magic settings or anything. Also, I'm using Renaissance Reverb when I need one, and it sounds pretty bad typically. The verb on andy's samples is clear and doesn't make the drums muddy or muffled... I'm sure Its a combination of not having great reverbs and the fact that I don't know what I'm doing.. I'd really like to know what kind of processing went into those samples though.

 

[Disconnekt]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Andy say that on AE's Doomsday Machine he just used Pro Tools' D-Verb? I'm with you on drum verb frustration, but if I'm right about that, the quality of the reverb used is definitely not the determining factor, since Doomsday Machine is a fantastic-sounding mix (in my opinion).

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

What kind heads are you using?

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Andy say that on AE's Doomsday Machine he just used Pro Tools' D-Verb?

Yes, I remember that as well !

 

[kelch]

I don't even understand how to get that much crack and presence out of my raw tracks. I'm pretty sure its not even possible.
.

it's the snare drum... I have a terrible snare on my kit, but a friend has a snare that is just awesome. I wish I could remember the type, but it's loud, sharp and has a crack that's just wonderful. I've considered a buy, but I don't track kits often enough to justify the expense. I keep buying amp heads.

kelch-

 

[James Murphy]

as for your question #2.... assuming you do know what you are doing with mic positioning, as you stated... then other factors could be the drums themselves, the heads, the tuning job, the player's technique, the pre.. etc. Rcomp should do fine as a mix compressor for your drum tracks. as far as verb goes, make sure you filter the verb return... this will do wonders for not having it "muddy" your drums.

 

[Youowemeapony]

Yeah, I definately don't think the kit is the problem.

I play a Starclassic Maple kit with Remo Emperors on top and Ambassadors on bottom, PS3's on kick, and Evans Power center snare head... I replaced all my heads about two months ago, and I honestly think they sound just about as good as they did when they were new. My kit sounds great in the room, and I'm not neccessarily saying the kit sounds like garbage after it's tracked, but it just doesn't have the clarity and presence that I'm looking for. I think I might be mistaking what I want though. The more I listen to other mixes, the more I realize that I need drums that cut, but don't OWN the mix. I think that's where compression comes in.. when I solo stuff to get compression nailed, I think I do it to what would sound good to a drummer, and not so much what would sound good in a mix.

also, James, what do you mean filter the verb return? usually i insert verb on my snare tracks, or maybe make an effects send for toms and snare... do you guys usually put verb on the whole kit?

 

[black sugar]

as far as verb goes, make sure you filter the verb return... this will do wonders for not having it "muddy" your drums.

Yes!

The day I applied an HPF to my drum verbs, the clouds parted, birds sang, and I was really pissed I didn't think of it earlier.

Unfortunalely for me, that was not very long ago.

Up until then, I was tweaking the drum eq and the verb paramaters, and generally having the verb lower in the mix than I wanted in order to compensate for the muddiness. Doh.


Youowemeapony, I usually run a plate and a room verb and send different parts of the kit to each verb at different levels. Mainly snare and toms to the plate, mainly overheads to the room. I record in a dead rehearsal space, so unfortunately, I have to simulate more room feel than I'd like.

I'd love to hear how other people around here handle verb sends on drums.