A Philosophical Musical Question

[speed]

I made a thread a few years ago on another forum, that was far from popular. In fact, I think it was universally reviled. I even received hate messages in my inbox. But, allow me to ask it again: How much time does the metal genre have left before it becomes so stagnant it disappears? And yes, as I will explain, this is a philosophical question.

I made this comment after reading Oswald Spengler's massive opus The Decline of the West. Now, I know, Oswald is not exactly a popular thinker these days, but he does get one to think. After reading his ideas regarding the lifespan of music, art, literature and culture in general, it does force one to realize that we just might be at the end of our current forms of culture. I've yet to really see any new forms of art or music since the 1960's ( ok, 40 years is a small period of time, but then again, the pop art, and contemporary art of the 60's really isnt very good, and the electronic experimintation of Xenakis and Stockhausen in classical music has really somewhat died; as I really dont see anyone doing anything with it).

Anyway, extrapolating these ideas into metal, I quickly came to the conclusion that apart from the innovative doom/stoner genre, and a few interesting black metal bands, that metal as a genre, is dead. Metal's subgenres and their highly structured forms have been so overdone, and are without really any new innovation, that it is hard to fathom whether anything truly "new" can be introduced.

Is this really the case? Or will new forms of heavy music appear in the future? And if so, what forms and innovation will they take? Are there any?

 

[Lord SteveO]

I wouldn't say metal will die off, and i'd argue it's not really all that stagnent at the moment either. At least it's not stagnent if you are willing to look past the latest copy of Metal Hammer and look about for the less well known bands. There's still a heck of a lot of bands out there doing really good things, they just don't get the coverage so nobody knows about them.
The popular bands and genres will always die off, or change so much they are no longer what they were (just look how rap/hip-hop has changed, now it's all guns and girls, it used to be semi-ok to listen to in the 80's!).
Put it this way, classical music has not died out, and it has been around for 100's of years. I see metal in a similar light, as long as people are out there willing to do it to enjoy it and let others enjoy it then it will go on for a long time.

 

[The Deacon Dr. O]

I've yet to really see any new forms of art or music since the 1960's ( ok, 40 years is a small period of time, but then again, the pop art, and contemporary art of the 60's really isnt very good, and the electronic experimintation of Xenakis and Stockhausen in classical music has really somewhat died; as I really dont see anyone doing anything with it).

The metal movement as a whole had its roots in the 70's, and I believe abstract art is relatively new.

 

[10293847]

Music is ideas. New Ideas always appear. Music, and so Metal, will never become completely stagnant and dissapear.

 

[speed]

Music is ideas. New Ideas always appear. Music, and so Metal, will never become completely stagnant and dissapear.

Yes, but the question is, whether the new music is any good?--or as good as the music it was based off of?

 

[10293847]

Yes, but the question is, whether the new music is any good?--or as good as the music it was based off of?

Ok, and what are you looking for? A definite answer? It's all opinions. Seems pretty futile to me.

 

[speed]

Ok, and what are you looking for? A definite answer? It's all opinions. Seems pretty futile to me.

True, very true. I'm thinking like a Leonardo / Jackson Pollack debate. Haha.

But there are a number of metal genres that have stagnanted to such a point they might as well be dead. For instance power, thrash and prog metal havent changed in 15 years. Sure there are a few new talented bands, but they all play essentially the same thing.

 

[Erik]

How do you draw the conclusion that "metal is dead" from an observation that "thrash and prog metal haven't changed in 15 years"? The thing about thrash metal is that it served its purpose as an evolutionary step; because basically you can only go so far in any one direction of thrash metal before it becomes death or black metal (and this is what happened in the mid-late 80's) or regresses back to speed or heavy metal -- or you can dumb it down and mix it with hardcore and become The Haunted. The problem with prog metal is that it is wanky bullshit that is content to revel in its own technical feces. BUT I DIGRESS!

You can complain all you want about your 20000 Darkthrone and Carcass clones, but meanwhile, you have your Negurã Bungets and Velvet Cacoons and Summonings and Skepticisms and Esoterics and The Chasms and whatnot and while you might not NOTICE it now a lot of these bands are doing things that in a broader perspective, maybe 10 years from now, will be considered pretty fuckin revolutionary and perhaps instrumental in creating whole new genres, if that's your thing.

I'd argue that there are perhaps MORE truly inventive metal bands around now than in the 80's or so. There are also MORE shit bands, but hey, it's also easier to filter through the rubbish.

Let me try to prove a point here, the point being that we are NO worse off now than the multiple other times metal has been considered dead:

REWIND TIME TO 1978 - Heavy metal is stagnant. Black Sabbath starts sucking, Judas Priest starts selling out, etc. NWOBHM to the rescue, revitalises heavy metal when everyone thought it was already dead. Think about it -- people were triumphantly proclaiming the demise of metal in 1978 much in the same way you're doing here. Then BAM! fucking Iron Maiden in your face. Then doom, then speed metal. Then thrash.

FAST FORWARD TO 1989 - Thrash metal is stagnant. Thrash metal popularity (which consisted of a few true innovators, and endless waves of clone bands with no real value -- much like the situation today) was dying off, the remaining thrash bands sell out or disband. Death metal to the rescue!

FAST FORWARD TO 1992 - Death metal is stagnant. People get fucking tired of the trend. 2nd wave black metal. Whole new style of metal arises.

FAST FORWARD TO 200? - People get fucking tired of "black metal" clone shit. ?!? happens.


Q: If the situation now is essentially the same as when trad heavy metal stagnated in the 70's, when thrash metal stagnated in the 80's, or when death metal stagnated in the 90's, why were there fewer bands playing derivative bullshit back then and more bands that actually had something new to offer?

A: Because in 19-fuckin-85, you couldn't just start a band with a computer in your bedroom, burn CD-R's and spread your music around half the fucking globe via the Internet and get signed to countless small independent labels operating mainly over the Internet. You probably had (proportionally) almost as many worthless clone bands operating in various garages and rehearsal rooms in 1985, they just didn't have MEANS of spreading their music so you didn't NOTICE the overabundance of stagnation as much as today. This doesn't mean it WASN'T THERE. When enough labels figured out they would cash in on the thrash trend by signing mediocre bands, thrash "died" due to stagnation.

Ramble post!

 

[speed]

No I am actually tending to agree with you Erik. Its amazing how perceptions change over time. But still, wouldnt it be nice if all the metalcore, death, black, thrash, power/prog bands that all sound the same, and really offer nothing new, would just disappear?

 

[speed]

Well it would be nice & convenient if all the world's problems just went away right about now but as it is, metal is alive but polluted. Just weed through the shit and focus on what's relevant. Much like, uh, well, life in general

I agree, this is a serious problem everywhere: from literature, to movies, to T.V. , to beer.

 

[derek]

But it makes finding the good stuff all the more special.

 

[speed]

Now we have reached this stage, I have a few more questions/observations.

1) It seems in the last 15 years--especially in the last 5--that it has become increasingly difficult for good art/music/movies/literature/T.V. to find an audience. In short, eveything has been watered or dumbed down by corporations seeking higher profits. Sure, there are a few shining lights in each aforementioned field, but not many-- and the numbers are decreasing every second it seems.

2) Hence,will these obscure artists that are creating excellent art/music etc, ever influence anything more than a very, very small clique of persons who are willing to spend the necessary time, and have the subsequent taste to seek them out? Essentially can art of some value made in the last 15-20 years ( and yes, I think even though it is based on opinion, one can and must ascertain quality art/music etc. ) ever again influence young or future artists? Or will they be forced to go back to the past? To listen to old Sabbath, Maiden and SLayer, to watch old movies, to learn from the old painting masters, and so on.

Just a few questions I am perennially preoccupied with. I'm down to like three T.V. shows, one or two bands they put on radio, one or two new metal bands, and everyone knows there hasnt been many original or creative movies lately. The good stuff seems to be shrinking.

 

[Dushan S]

Speed, I will risk some hate mail too, and add that European metal is in my opinion one foot in the grave. I think that just the fact that there is now a different generation of listeners saved the day, and maybe a few bends that are actually borrowing from the noneuropean sound. I don't remember for how long I didn't heard anything that is a new information for me. On the other hand, so much hated "NuMetal" and all his subgenres are alive, borrowing from other styles of music, and even if they are too quite generic, there is still some evident progres and evolution in sound and style. Also there is some kind of strange retro activity. I have a lot of students, and thez are my connection with what kids are listening, and I am kind of neutral because there was a "hole" in my listening of metal for 4-5 years. I have missed everything in that period. Than I have heard some "new" (well, not new for some other people, but new for me) bends that got popular during late 90's or in last few years and I was really confused. I told to guys playing me those songs "Man, are you serious? THIS is new and interesting? They would play some power metal band sounding like Helloween-Malmsteen rip off or, some stupid fusion of King Diamond-Bathory-and generic trach metal bend, and telling me that those bands are cool...

I think it is even worst that there is not much inventive songwriting in metal today and it is really generic, for instance, I really like Soilwork, because I like their sound and energy, but half of songs have VIminor-IV chord progression (for instance Em -C) in chorus, I mean, isn't there someone objective in that bend to come to senses and say "We can't do this anymore, lets use third chord in this new songs chorus?"

Some subgenres are dead because they are too defined and simply retarded, for instance Power Metal. You cannot make Power metal song and be any good. Double bass patter on drums, guitars playing riffs and then melody in thirds, neoclassical solo, castrated singer... Where you can go and still be part of power metal genre?

But, I must say, there is one thing that can't be beaten even if style of music is stucked:
GOOD SONG
And there are still some good songs in metal to be found. But genre as a whole is a stagnant. I don't know what is really there to blame, because, music scene is stagnant alltogether, so it is normal that subgenres are affected.

 

[speed]

Speed, I will risk some hate mail too, and add that European metal is in my opinion one foot in the grave. I think that just the fact that there is now a different generation of listeners saved the day, and maybe a few bends that are actually borrowing from the noneuropean sound. I don't remember for how long I didn't heard anything that is a new information for me. On the other hand, so much hated "NuMetal" and all his subgenres are alive, borrowing from other styles of music, and even if they are too quite generic, there is still some evident progres and evolution in sound and style. Also there is some kind of strange retro activity. I have a lot of students, and thez are my connection with what kids are listening, and I am kind of neutral because there was a "hole" in my listening of metal for 4-5 years. I have missed everything in that period. Than I have heard some "new" (well, not new for some other people, but new for me) bends that got popular during late 90's or in last few years and I was really confused. I told to guys playing me those songs "Man, are you serious? THIS is new and interesting? They would play some power metal band sounding like Helloween-Malmsteen rip off or, some stupid fusion of King Diamond-Bathory-and generic trach metal bend, and telling me that those bands are cool...

I think it is even worst that there is not much inventive songwriting in metal today and it is really generic, for instance, I really like Soilwork, because I like their sound and energy, but half of songs have VIminor-IV chord progression (for instance Em -C) in chorus, I mean, isn't there someone objective in that bend to come to senses and say "We can't do this anymore, lets use third chord in this new songs chorus?"

Some subgenres are dead because they are too defined and simply retarded, for instance Power Metal. You cannot make Power metal song and be any good. Double bass patter on drums, guitars playing riffs and then melody in thirds, neoclassical solo, castrated singer... Where you can go and still be part of power metal genre?

But, I must say, there is one thing that can't be beaten even if style of music is stucked:
GOOD SONG
And there are still some good songs in metal to be found. But genre as a whole is a stagnant. I don't know what is really there to blame, because, music scene is stagnant alltogether, so it is normal that subgenres are affected.

I am glad someone gets my point. I am also glad you have decided to focus on songwriting and musical form. Even metal bands that have borrowed from other musical genres, or metal subgenres, have for the most part stuck to the same basic metal songwriting form. Only bands like Sunn 0))), Solefad, Isis, or Neurosis, etc, have really deviated from any set metal songwriting form. And in regards to rock music in general, why the biggest thing in rock is retro bands. There are some decent bands playing this style, but they dont really offer anything new. And I am a big fan of modern classical, and frankly, nothing really all that new or interesting has been composed in some time. Its the same with art.

Now as I have previously stated, I realize there is stil some good stuff being created right now. But, in truth, I think at the beginning of the last century, culture came to its final fruition. We are left to wallow for decades with pale imitations. In Spenglarian terms, we are at the end of the cycle--just as the last cycle was the classical world--and the last two hundred years of the roman empire, where really very little was being created but imitations of prior masters.

Crazy ideas, I know. Sorry.

 

[Lord SteveO]

I think the big problem at the moment is that it is no longer people in the general public who decide what they like and what is good. Everything is controlled and it's almost like we are being made to buy cetain albums or clothes.
Just walk down the high street and look at clothes in the windows of shops. How many of those items of clothing would you ever buy or wear? How many people do you know who would wear them or buy them? Do you ever see people buying them? I don't, but they are still on sale. The designers want you to buy them, they want fashion to go a certain way.
It's no longer about "the people decide what's cool", it is now "what will be cool is already decided".
It's the same with music, look in any magazine, how many of the bands are actually seriously good? How many actually do anything new or groundbreaking, or can even put on a good show? Not many, it's just the record companies trying to make us buy certain things.
And the same with TV too. Why is there so much shite on TV if everyone i've ever spoken to says it's all crap?

I imagine most users on here are intelligent ot look beyond all this to find good music, clothes, TV, films etc. Sadly the general public is not.

 

[speed]

I think the big problem at the moment is that it is no longer people in the general public who decide what they like and what is good. Everything is controlled and it's almost like we are being made to buy cetain albums or clothes.
Just walk down the high street and look at clothes in the windows of shops. How many of those items of clothing would you ever buy or wear? How many people do you know who would wear them or buy them? Do you ever see people buying them? I don't, but they are still on sale. The designers want you to buy them, they want fashion to go a certain way.
It's no longer about "the people decide what's cool", it is now "what will be cool is already decided".
It's the same with music, look in any magazine, how many of the bands are actually seriously good? How many actually do anything new or groundbreaking, or can even put on a good show? Not many, it's just the record companies trying to make us buy certain things.
And the same with TV too. Why is there so much shite on TV if everyone i've ever spoken to says it's all crap?

I imagine most users on here are intelligent ot look beyond all this to find good music, clothes, TV, films etc. Sadly the general public is not.

Exactly. If I may don my Anus cap for a second: the problem obviously is the pernicious and invasive nature of Capitalism. Like Christianity's zealous missionaries, the capitalists have decided to convert the whole world, and tell them how to live and more importantly, what they need to properly live.
T.V. movies, literatures, and music have all fallen under this capitalistic zeal. There is no true culture left; its all so corrupt.

 

[Dushan S]

I agree with both of you, but have in mind one thing:

Media is dictating our tastes, that is true but on the other hand if there isn't some kind of information network to give us ideas about what is going on, one different problem arises... In times of great classical composers, if you were interested to hear different stuff, you had to be rich and free from work, and you had to take a trip to different town. If you were composer yourself and wanted to exchange ideas with other guy you had to travel too. So this is one of the reasons that because of lack of change in their lifes and new informations and as there was no exchange of ideas, a lot of work of great composers was just a recycling of some of their better works. I know some people that would take this statement as a blasphemy, but J.S.Bach made a lot crappy music that sounds similar to few great compositions.
So I think at the end, there are more benefits of modern media than it is bad because of corporations "dictating" what we should like.
Also because of information networks, there is less time needed, change of music style was taking few decades or more, and now it gets 10 times faster. So who knows, maybe we are kind of too spoiled and this is just a specific period in evolution of music art, and there will be big change in concept of music as an art soon, so we have to sit and wait to see what happens.

 

[Erik]

the same basic metal songwriting form.

Tell me -- what is this "basic metal songwriting form"? Does Judas Priest follow it? Soilwork? Skepticism? Velvet Cacoon? Graveland? Demilich? Ildjarn? Opeth?

 

[Erik]

Exactly. If I may don my Anus cap for a second: the problem obviously is the pernicious and invasive nature of Capitalism. Like Christianity's zealous missionaries, the capitalists have decided to convert the whole world, and tell them how to live and more importantly, what they need to properly live.
T.V. movies, literatures, and music have all fallen under this capitalistic zeal. There is no true culture left; its all so corrupt.

Do you consider yourself "converted by capitalism"? Do you consider your favourite artists "converted by capitalism"? Is capitalism telling you to listen to death metal? No? How can you claim that "there is no true culture left"?

 

[derek]

Definately taken too far. Idea's can be influenced but to say we are all stuck in a rut of being force fed and having that nonsense influence our ideas is, to me at least, senseless.

I don't find metal to be stagnant whatsoever.