A quick question......

[Noble Viking]

I've heard you say before that you don't like "keyboard metal". I was just wondering why you don't like it?

Thanks Ron,
Viking

 

[jimbobhickville]

Well, I'm sure Ron will answer at some point, but I personally dislike a lot of 'keyboard' metal because it's called 'progressive' by a lot of the press. Anything with keyboards is automatically labeled as 'progressive' because Dream Theater were once progressive and used keyboards. So, any no-talent hacks who throw some keyboard melodies in their poorly-written power ballads are lumped in with truly great musicians. And that's rather annoying. Maybe if people called it a different name, and left the 'progressive metal' genre to really talented musicians, then it wouldn't bother people so much.

Just my $0.02

 

[fragility]

I pretty much agree.. there are a lot of people who talk about "progressive metal" in terms of metal which is influenced by the sound of progressiev rock...not music which is genuinely progressive

 

[Noble Viking]

So you guys don't like keyboard metal when it is labeled as Progressive because it's a misnomer? Does that mean you guys don't like keyboards in metal too? I think Dream Theater, Adagio and Symphony X are pretty progressive and they use keyboards. Jens Johansson also has some solo cds where he plays with Shawn Lane, and Allan Holdsworth and those CDs are pretty progressive too. I also like that keyboards add an addtional element to music that a guitar can not provide. I really like Mustis from Dimmu Borgir for example. The sounds from his synth give the songs a new dimension and great atmosphere.

 

[fragility]

From my perspective, I love good use of keys/synths in metal....just that I hate when certian bands get classed as "progressive" erely because they have strong use of keyboards in their music if that makes sense

 

[ronjarz]

Greg,
You said it, exactly...

The "progressive metal" genre has been destroyed because of that "keyboard" sound that is so dominant in earlier Dream Theater material. These so called "progressive metal" bands do have that same keyboard sound (usually during verses) and are good players/writers, but are they all "progressive"?? Hell no. The majority of them just rode DT all they could until they drove the genre into the dirt. So where the hell is it now? Does "progressive" even exist in that genre?

But do I dislike keyboards in metal? Not at all. Jens Johansson, Derek Sherinian, lots of great "metal" keyboardists out there. Do they just hold out whole note chords while the guitarist and bassist are riffing away? Take a listen to Planet X's Moonbabies...

Ron

 

[jimbobhickville]

So you guys don't like keyboard metal when it is labeled as Progressive because it's a misnomer? Does that mean you guys don't like keyboards in metal too?

No, not at all. I like a lot of music with keyboards, but only when the keyboards actually serve to enhance the music. It's just that so many repetitive, unoriginal bands are riding the Dream Theater bandwagon, despite not really having the writing or playing talent to do so. And when people keep talking about the 'progressive' bands that never do anything remotely interesting or original, it starts to grate on the people who like truly progressive music.

You mention Symphony X. They are great players and I do like some of their music, but hello? They are totally an Yngwie Malmsteen ripoff. Originality? no. Progressiveness? no. Good players and decent music? Yes. But to call them progressive is an insult to bands who truly push the genre boundaries. It's hard to define a line on what's progressive and what's not, but some people are way too lenient in calling anything with keyboards 'progressive'.

 

[nicosanchez]

No, not at all. I like a lot of music with keyboards, but only when the keyboards actually serve to enhance the music. It's just that so many repetitive, unoriginal bands are riding the Dream Theater bandwagon, despite not really having the writing or playing talent to do so. And when people keep talking about the 'progressive' bands that never do anything remotely interesting or original, it starts to grate on the people who like truly progressive music.

You mention Symphony X. They are great players and I do like some of their music, but hello? They are totally an Yngwie Malmsteen ripoff. Originality? no. Progressiveness? no. Good players and decent music? Yes. But to call them progressive is an insult to bands who truly push the genre boundaries. It's hard to define a line on what's progressive and what's not, but some people are way too lenient in calling anything with keyboards 'progressive'.

amen to that

 

[Noble Viking]

And when people keep talking about the 'progressive' bands that never do anything remotely interesting or original, it starts to grate on the people who like truly progressive music.

There's the problem. If You and Ron don't necessarily like keyboard metal because it gives Progressive metal a bad name, shouldn't you be pissed off at the people that label non-progressive music as progressive?

About the Malmsteen rip off comment: I don't want to turn this into a SX argument, but sure, Romeo was influenced by Malmsteen, but just because he uses classical sounding riffs doesn't make him a rip off. I've never heard Malmsteen a have 20 minute masterpiece or use odd time signatures.

 

[revsharp777]

I really like Mustis from Dimmu Borgir for example. The sounds from his synth give the songs a new dimension and great atmosphere.

Agreed on that!

Personally, keyboards don't bother me. It's all in how an instrument is used to enhance the overall music & the mood. I will say I get tired of so-called prog bands using cheesy whole note synth chords that sound like they were done on a $20 Casio though. But then again, I'm always on the hunt for bands doing something unique...regardless of the instruments used.

 

[jimbobhickville]

There's the problem. If You and Ron don't necessarily like keyboard metal because it gives Progressive metal a bad name, shouldn't you be pissed off at the people that label non-progressive music as progressive?

We never said we were pissed off at the people playing the music. It's probably kind of like if you kept going around to a bunch of Mexicans, claiming you love their food. Those yummy chalupas are soooo good. They'll be inclined to ignore your or be offended that you think Taco Bell makes authentic Mexican food. And at the same time they resent Taco Bell for claiming to sell Mexican food and fooling the naive youth of today with their marketing.

So, here you have a brilliant guitarist who has always been ahead of the times and people are telling him that his excellent music and Chrome Shift are akin to each other. And he's like, 'WTF? I try to write interesting music that progresses the metal genre, and they write stuff that sounds like Dream Theater in order to appeal to fans of that band. How are we the same thing? And how dare this band label themselves in the same category.'

And some bystanders can understand where the guitarist is coming from and agree that such a comment is offensive to his hard work and brilliance.

About the Malmsteen rip off comment: I don't want to turn this into a SX argument, but sure, Romeo was influenced by Malmsteen, but just because he uses classical sounding riffs doesn't make him a rip off. I've never heard Malmsteen a have 20 minute masterpiece or use odd time signatures.

Ok, ripoff was a poor choice of words. However, there is a LOT of similarity in their sound. I do like Symphony X better, mostly because of the better vocalist and slightly more interesting rhythm section. The point was more that they aren't progressive because they are re-hashing something already done by others.

Huge disclaimer here. I don't only like progressive music. I never said I did. I appreciate it and love a lot of it, but I also dig a lot of bands who do nothing but provide me more headbanging thrash metal. Just wanted to make sure that was cleared up, if there was some confusion on the matter.

 

[SupersonicRobotic]

basically i want some quality riffage, structures and maturity in metal. i dont care about some girl with poofy hair standing in a mirror on your record cover (yeah, we all know youre heartbroken over tina and the keyboard solo is getting you over it)... or some stephen hawking jibberish for song titles...

i just want the straight up utility. not the images and rules of whats "prog" and whats not.

everytime i started looking for new "progressive metal" i was expecting things like death, cynic, etc, etc... then id find out it was a dream theatre rip off or some fantasy neo-classical nonsense. i guess i came from the WRONG side of "progressive metal" when i started looking for other things.

I've heard you say before that you don't like "keyboard metal". I was just wondering why you don't like it?

 

[Crystal Star]

Alright Symphony X in no way is a rip-off! Michael Romeo is way more talented than yngwie malmsteen ever was or will be! I love Yngwie as a musician but sometimes he is just pure sloppyness. When I listen to Symphony X it is totaly different because Michael can do slow soloing too you know, and he has a lot more emotion added into his solos. And his riffs are not at all like Yngwie's riffs. jimbobhickville, have you ever listened to the song Divine Wings of Tradgedy? That song is Original all over the place and they have a very progressive feel in that song. The only Yngwie that I think is good is Rising Force, Marching Out, and Trilogy.

 

[the_satanic_rabbit]

^^^

MJR is heavily influenced by Yngwie but he's also influenced by a lot of other great guitarists. He does a good job of mixing it up. He also has a unique sound by playing arpeggios using his string-skipping tapping technique, so you get cool arpeggios like a dominant 7th or even a whole-tone scale, which is much cooler sounding than the basic root-third-fifth arpeggios.

To me, Symphony X is one of the best bands right now, keyboard metal or not.

 

[jimbobhickville]

yes, I've heard every CD that Symphony X has released. I admitted ripoff was an overstatement, but the fact remains that if you played an Yngwie CD then a Symphony X CD to someone not well versed in the genre they would have a hard time differentiating between them. And I never said it was a bad thing, nor did I say Symphony X was a bad band. I own a couple of their CDs. I think they are infinitely better than Yngwie as well. Do you people just read me say 'ripoff', then hit 'reply'? Or do you bother reading the rest of my comments? All I said was 'progressive' as a label shouldn't apply to bands who just copy their sound from another band. Sure, they may do it better, but it still isn't original.

Ok, now pick out some side comment in there and get all pissed off about it.... GO!!

 

[NeverMarty]

Ok, now pick out some side comment in there and get all pissed off about it.... GO!!

This reminds me of something I mentioned to Ron in Amsterdam: back in the days of newsgroups I frequented, among others, the Dream Theater one. No idea what it was called, anymore (probably alt.fan.dream-theater or some such), but I very much remember calling them "regressive" instead of progressive, and explaining how their borrowing from 70's "prog rock" bands after WDADU was hardly grounds for calling DT progressive anymore. I loved WDADU, but have been disappointed with any of their later work. Now, I'm sure most of the guys on there were post-WDADU fans anyway, so I got the full load of scorn and flames after posting that, of course, except for I think it was Matt Johnsen who agreed with me. Doug seemed to as well, but I got the impression Ron thought calling them regressive might be going a little too far - o well... In the meantime, I guess fanboys haven't changed much :Spin:

 

[zlogdan]

Don't take me bad, but Dream Theater has a distinct feel of Rush and Iron Maiden rather than 70s prog rock. Anyway, DT does not come with anything really new at least for a proper comparision with Tower IMHO. Just for the records, Dt is my favorite band. OK within certain points they enjoy to quote bands like Yes ( Learning to live quotes heart of the sunrise for example ), but as a whole DT = Rush + iron maiden + Metallica + shredding.

As for Symphony X, I enjoy "Divine Wings Of Tragedy" more than any of their releases. But it is a mix of Malmsteen ( we need to give him the credits as he was one of the first ones to abuse of melodic minor scales in metal ) and those killing Pantera riffs. Musically speaking, I enjoy the Jason Rullo playing a lot. When i saw them live, that guy was killing.