A spankin' cool band and the problem it brings

[Aletheus]

It goes like this, I've known Theocracy for quite some time now, and the album is still played on a regular basis, heh... The lyrical content was never a problem when it came to Matts songwriting, on the contrary, as a devoted Christian I enjoyed it more than anything to see a band kick 16 different types of ass, and maintain a pure essence that never contradicted with my beliefs. (Note: I just put on some music to aide me in writing this needlessly long post, guess what it is:

)

And now to add some sense to this post as to make it relevant to the Title.
I've recently heard of the band Outworld, and after listening to a few songs, I've grown quite fond of them, great musicianship, great vocals and a wicked performance. But then I went ahead and read some of the lyrics, for the most part it was predictable. And then I saw J-man get mentioned and was curious as to what purpose? What was this bands opinion on religion in general, or Christianity?
For all of you who're interested here's a song by the band:
[ame]http://youtube.com/watch?v=e0IkQJqL3kk[/ame]
And here's a glimpse at their lyrics:
http://metal-archives.com/release.php?id=108604 (Raise Hell, War Cry)
At first I thought the lyrics were anti-religion oriented in a small manner (meaning it never revolved around religion), but then I thought it was a mere mentioning just to add religion to the list of man made troubles or something in that manner.

After finding this out I could no longer bring myself to listen to them any more.
I may be a somewhat religious fanatic to refuse a great band just 'cause of a few words, but that's how it is, and I wanted to hear your opinion on this.

(Too long; didn't read: )
Can you and how can you bring yourself to listen to a band that badmouths religion (or any other belief you cherish) with such ease?

(I've had this issue with a lot of other bands, and I'd unwillingly toss them aside, so I thought I'd pop the question here, since both religious and atheistic people like Theocracy. ^^)

 

[Aletheus]

Oh and a piece of info for Axl (a regular member here, if I'm not mistaken ), the bassist of Outworld is Shawn Kascak, who also played in Cauldron Born. =D

 

[Atreides]

I found little in those lyrics that offend me much, since much of the anti-religious content in bands has basis in truth. You might say i'm kinda "critical-but-extremely-devout."

The way I see it, all artists are contributing to a kind of greater conversation that encompasses philosophy, theology, history, science, spirituality, or anything involving a search for meaning and truth. If I wish to contribute to this conversation in my own life, then I must accept all viewpoints as legitimate in the conversation, as well (though not necessarily accept them as "true"). To throw away a band because of the opinions represented, despite the band's artistic value, misses the point of art, IMO. When I do that, I relinquish my right to any say in the conversation. Now, if you question the artistic value of their PRESENTATION, then that's a different matter entirely.

I also don't judge those who make a personal decision to avoid regularly listening to groups who have lyrics with which they disagree, as long as they don't deride the MUSICAL QUALITY of the band based on their disagreement. I simply have never had a problem listening to bands who disagree with me, because of the reasons presented above.

 

[Aletheus]

That helped a little, and I do agree with you for the most part. But I can't help the feeling that it's a bad thing, a sin, a misdoing to listen to such lyrics and enjoy the music. Somewhat bittersweet, ya know? How to cope with it? (Before saying it's your MENTAL thing, we can't fix you, I'd like to hear your experiences)

 

[SeaStorm]

It's all personal. Lyrics are more important to some people than others. For me, the lyrics and vocals are the most important part of the music, so if I find the lyrics being opposed to my beliefs, I tend to move on to other bands. Like Atreides said, it's not like I badmouth them and say that they suck or anything. It's just that I've got only so much time to listen to music and why waste it listening to stuff that makes me cringe or feel bad. Sometimes the music will be so superb that I overlook it (in which case I'm normally using the music to get something else out of it, like to get pumped up for something). But usually, I just keep looking for bands that have both the musicianship I want and lyrics I can either identify or at least find interesting (the "another perspective" angle).

For example, Slayer. All my metal friends love 'em. Even the Christian ones. But I just can't spend time with them. Whether their lyrics reflect their beliefs or not (I know many people say it's a gimmick with them), I just have so many other awesome bands that I love to spend my time listening to. It's not like there's a shortage of bands making great music.

 

[SeaStorm]

I have some friends who don't ever listen to lyrics or even care what they are. They simply love "the music" and that it's. That's why I point out that the value of lyrics/vocals is different for everyone.

I definitely don't think you need to feel bad.

Also, you don't always have to dump the entire band, just some songs. I enjoy Gamma Ray, but there are some songs that I skip due to the lyrics (for example, Real World off the new one). That doesn't prevent me from enjoying the rest of their work or seeing them in concert! I just spend my listening time listening to stuff that has value for me.

 

[Atreides]

Well stated, SeaStorm.

Though, I must clarify on one point. Lyrics are VITALLY important to me. However, it isn't the exact nature of the message that I judge, but the way in which the message is presented, no matter what it is. A preachy and overbearing message, whether Christian or anti-Christian, will win you a "miss" in my book. Poetic, intelligent, powerful, well-written lyrics, on the other hand, will usually win me over regardless of the message. Whether it's Theocracy singing about sacrificing all for God, or Nevermore decrying the corruption of society and religion.

It's all about the ART of a thing to me.

 

[Aletheus]

I thought Kai Hansen was a Christian? Real World is sang from the perspective of an atheist...
Can anyone clarify (with sources) what religion are Kai Hansen, Andi Deris and Michael Kiske?

See this is exactly what I was talking about, I used to enjoy occasionally listening to some Helloween or Gamma Ray on their myspace or wherever (since I don't own any of their cd-s), but now I can't bring myself to listen to such *insert cliche* blasphemous ranting*.

I' appreciate you sharing your opinions and experiences. Thanks guys ^^

Will think a little 'bout this matter.

 

[Atreides]

In response to your statement, Aletheus, about feeling that it's a sin to listen to such lyrics and enjoy the music:

I'm not entirely sure I can offer much in the way of experience, considering I've hardly if ever felt that such was a sin. In my opinion, you become a much better testimony for a community when you understand and sympathize with their mentality from a Christian standpoint. I don't believe at all that metal's attitude of individualism and resistance to brainwashing and conforming is opposed to the true teachings of Christ. True, it's often presented in a way that spits in the face of Christianity as a religion - but, it must be said, I truly believe that Christianity down throughout history is largely a pawn used by the powerful for their own purposes. I think that the best choice (personally) is to make an effort to understand their perspective and respect it, while still upholding the Gospel of Christ.

So, I can easily listen to lyrics that seem anti-Christian if they are well-presented, make good points (though I may not necessarily agree with the conclusions), and flow along to fantastic music. Having been a bitter agnostic for some time, I think that may put a slightly unique perspective on it, as well. I can somewhat feel their pain and anger without questioning my faith, because I've already been down that path and come out on the other side.

However, your relationship with Christ is personal, so it must be said: If you feel it is wrong, don't let me change your mind.

 

[Aletheus]

I can totally agree with you on this: "I think that the best choice (personally) is to make an effort to understand their perspective and respect it, while still upholding the Gospel of Christ."

I've had a lot of things in mind to mention here, but seeing as it's late here and I'm dead tired I'll let it rest as it is.
You're definitely right about accepting others' opinions while praising their talents, no matter the conflict of beliefs.
I think I can enjoy decent secular bands without feeling guilty from now on.

Thanks to my limited knowledge of English I can't exactly put most of my thoughts to words, so I'll just cut it and state the necessary: Thank you for your time, gentlemen. ^^

 

[SeaStorm]

I don't believe at all that metal's attitude of individualism and resistance to brainwashing and conforming is opposed to the true teachings of Christ.

Interesting point. Many bands write their lyrics vaguely enough that I find the lyrics suit my feelings, even if they really don't (from the band's perspective).

For example, IME from the newest Helloween album. The song is a pretty simple "Don't tell me how to live" song. It's unstated who or what is doing the telling. If the band were to expand on what it means to them, I bet they'd count Christianity as one of the things telling them how to live ("I should not this, I must not that, No matter how I act I must regret"; "I got to turn it down when I feel great; That's not me").

However, the lyrics are vague enough that I can easily apply it to my life in that the unstated "thing" telling me how to live is secular American society.

 

[Aletheus]

Oh, and by the way... Whadya think of Outworld?

And a question for Matt (who will never read this anyways ^^(so that means I'm looking forward to anyone answering )) what's your opinion on Tobias Sammet's pseudo-Christian-bashing?
I know Toby openly criticizes the Church 'cause of the inquisition and the Crusades, but there's more to it than that.
For instance he is using Holy Water (in the s/t track) as a symbol of purity to cleanse him of his pains. And many say that Avantasia is in a way pro-Christian orientated (well, even Rob Rock helped, and I highly doubt Rob would participate in an act that goes against his own beliefs). Yet there are songs like New Age Messiah that make fun of the Church and/or Christianity.

I'm off to bed, have fun.