Air Force (Mike from Symph X, Rhino, etc)

[Claus / Intromental]

Ok so illegal downloading is to blame for bad productions in 2010? Thats nonsense.

I'm saying that you might as well get used to inferior productions. Bands can no longer afford the big studio recordings.

My old band back in 1995 went in a small studio in Albany NY on a 500.00 budget and made a demo that sounds better than this.

1995 - $500 in a studio would get you much further than $500 would 2010.

If you're claiming you can only get a decent sounding recording if you dish out 10,000.00 is ridiculous.

Did I say that?
Nope ... I said that the bands can no longer afford the 10k recordings ...
Just 5-10 years ago that was the norm for the bands I worked with, to spend anywhere between 10-20k on a recording. Today it's WAY less, and we always have to compromise quality somewhere along the way. I'm telling you, it's a tendency that will become the norm very soon.

As to the technology its not all that hard. A few simple online tutorials can go a long way, and wont cost 10,000.00! When I started my radio show I didnt even know a thing about photoshop. When it came time, and I realized I needed some eye catching ads and graphics to help promote my show I took it upon myself to learn a few tricks of the trade via tutorials free online. Same with learning how to operate DJ software. When I got into my show I had no idea what SAM Broadcaster even was but I took the time to learn it so I could provide a decent sounding show.

That my friend, is the biggest bullshit I've ever seen you post. So in your world everyone can just sit down and learn how to use protools and become an expert at it? If it's that easy, then to hell with Neil Kernon, Mutt Lange, Andy Sneap and all the other big producers who've spent their entire career on getting better and better.

In talking to many of the producers over the last couple of years, I can guarentee you the trend I'm talking about is happening. Bands and labels can no longer afford to spend 4 weeks in a studio with a big time producer, so you'll see bands record at home, do a half-assed premix, send it off to the "name-guy" and have him work his magic in 2 days. Result: inferior product!

I understand this is a free demo, but I still stand by my word. I don't get these horrible sounding productions, and don't believe you need 10,000.00 to make a recording sound "decent". If my band could do it with 500.00 15 years ago, it can obviously be done today.

I'd like to hear that awesome production job that your band did for $500 15 years ago ... it must be fantastic since it got signed and got a major release, right?
c.

 

[dcowboys311]

An "unknown" band can't throw away $10.000 or more on going to a real studio with a real producer - heck, most signed bands can't even do that anymore.

The bands will get anywhere from nothing to nothing (yeah well ...) in advances and / or recording budgets from labels these days, so most bands now are "forced" to record at home on protools or whatever, and since none of these guys are skilled producers/engineers, it'll end up sounding like this.

So what's this band's excuse? They obviously know their way around a studio. Why does it still sound like ass?

Also, can you provide me of an example of one signed band who has released an album that didn't have a 'real producer'? Self-production isn't a bad thing when you know what you're doing.

 

[drmetal8]

I wasn't blown away but they did seem to have potential. Boals well...hes Boals, and sounds really good. Much better than he does on that shitty new band with McAlpine.

BTW the artwork layout came out really nice. Good work.

Thanks, not my best work, but I liked how it came out. I have some projects going right now that I'm excited about.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

So what's this band's excuse? They obviously know their way around a studio. Why does it still sound like ass?

How do you know that they "obviously know their way around a studio"? Just because they are all experienced musicians, doesn't mean they are PRODUCERS and ENGINEERS.

Also, can you provide me of an example of one signed band who has released an album that didn't have a 'real producer'? Self-production isn't a bad thing when you know what you're doing.

I could give you several examples of where bands record on their own and then only have a name guy mix and / or master the album in order to save money. And it's only going to become more and more of the norm that bands will even mix on their own because of lack of funding.

Most of the bands we discuss on this forum can't afford the big producers anylonger.

 

[dcowboys311]

That my friend, is the biggest bullshit I've ever seen you post. So in your world everyone can just sit down and learn how to use protools and become an expert at it? If it's that easy, then to hell with Neil Kernon, Mutt Lange, Andy Sneap and all the other big producers who've spent their entire career on getting better and better.

There's a difference between being proficient and being an expert. Being proficient allows you to do something well, but you might not be in the top 10% of all users. Bands who choose to go this route without having someone who is, at the very least, somewhat proficient in using their choice of production workstation working on the music shouldn't be releasing music in the first place and expecting people to take it seriously.

Additionally, many people...DOWNLOAD...programs like ProTools as well. It's resulted in increased knowledge and familiarity with the program. So while you might not be at the same level of Kernon, Lange, and Sneap, it's a lot easier to get good at what you're doing. And those who do reach the upper-percentile of proficiency with these programs will likely pursue a career in this field. A career = necessary to purchase legitimate versions. The widespread availability and accessibility of these programs will result in more talented audio engineers (as in more engineers who are talented, not engineers who have more talent than the aforementioned ones).

 

[dcowboys311]

How do you know that they "obviously know their way around a studio"? Just because they are all experienced musicians, doesn't mean they are PRODUCERS and ENGINEERS.

I didn't say they were engineers. But due to their experience and longevity in the music scene, you can gather that they have learned at least a LITTLE bit of what their doing. This demo sounds worse than most local band demos! There's no excuse for that.

I could give you several examples of where bands record on their own and then only have a name guy mix and / or master the album in order to save money. And it's only going to become more and more of the norm that bands will even mix on their own because of lack of funding.

Most of the bands we discuss on this forum can't afford the big producers anylonger.

Is it necessarily a bad thing that bands are recording on their own? They have more comfort, more time, less stress, etc. It allows more flexibility than when you're holed up in a studio.

Also, with most bands, it's not like they're recluses -- they're generally acquainted with people in the same genre throughout the world and people in the music scene in their local area. Plenty of resources to draw from and plenty of cheap studios to check out. It's more about networking now.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

There's a difference between being proficient and being an expert. Being proficient allows you to do something well, but you might not be in the top 10% of all users. Bands who choose to go this route without having someone who is, at the very least, somewhat proficient in using their choice of production workstation working on the music shouldn't be releasing music in the first place and expecting people to take it seriously.

Well, that makes no sense - there are also a ton of bands out there who have no idea on how to write a good song that also releases music and expect us to take it seriously.

Additionally, many people...DOWNLOAD...programs like ProTools as well. It's resulted in increased knowledge and familiarity with the program. So while you might not be at the same level of Kernon, Lange, and Sneap, it's a lot easier to get good at what you're doing. And those who do reach the upper-percentile of proficiency with these programs will likely pursue a career in this field. A career = necessary to purchase legitimate versions. The widespread availability and accessibility of these programs will result in more talented audio engineers (as in more engineers who are talented, not engineers who have more talent than the aforementioned ones).

Ahhh, but that's the root of the whole problem ... DOWNLOADING takes money away from so many people ...

Someone STEALS the protools program = the guys who made it won't be making money on the sales

Someone learns on their own to produce an album = the producers are without a job

The thing is that you, the consumers, don't seem to realize that in the end you are going to be hammered with less quality products and more of the self-produced "shit sounding / demo sounding" albums.

c.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

This demo sounds worse than most local band demos! There's no excuse for that.

I wouldn't know, I haven't listened to it.

Is it necessarily a bad thing that bands are recording on their own? They have more comfort, more time, less stress, etc. It allows more flexibility than when you're holed up in a studio.

It's bad for the paid producers who suddenly are out of a job.
It's bad for you, the consumer, when you get a product that hasn't been in the hands of a professional studio engineer and or producer.

Also, with most bands, it's not like they're recluses -- they're generally acquainted with people in the same genre throughout the world and people in the music scene in their local area. Plenty of resources to draw from and plenty of cheap studios to check out. It's more about networking now.

Where does this "cheap studios" idea come from?
You know the old saying that "with peanuts you can only buy monkies", right? If it's cheap it's typically because it's lesser quality.

 

[Metaldrumz]

That my friend, is the biggest bullshit I've ever seen you post. So in your world everyone can just sit down and learn how to use protools and become an expert at it? If it's that easy, then to hell with Neil Kernon, Mutt Lange, Andy Sneap and all the other big producers who've spent their entire career on getting better and better.

In talking to many of the producers over the last couple of years, I can guarentee you the trend I'm talking about is happening. Bands and labels can no longer afford to spend 4 weeks in a studio with a big time producer, so you'll see bands record at home, do a half-assed premix, send it off to the "name-guy" and have him work his magic in 2 days. Result: inferior product!

I'd like to hear that awesome production job that your band did for $500 15 years ago ... it must be fantastic since it got signed and got a major release, right?

c.

Who said anything about having to be an "expert" on protools? I am no expert in photoshop but I know a lot of simple but useful tricks that come in handy. So you have to be an expert in order to learn any software? Surely someone could learn enough to at least make a decent recording. I never said the caliber of a Dennis Ward, or Frederick Nordstrom...I said "decent". Again free online tutorials go a long way. Google is your friend (only when it comes to information lol).

Did I ever say my bands production was "fantastic"? If you wanna take jabs at my old band thats fine but don't put words in my mouth. I said it sounded better than this 2010 demo (obviously thats just my opinion). As a matter of fact Scott MacPherson (Aaron Neville among others) wanted to produce us after hearing our demo, and Capital Records were set to sign us. Because of inner turmoil within the band along with the hassles of the grunge movement coming in (we were one of those cheese hair bands) we split up in early 1996. We actually did a couple gigs with another forumer ENERTIA JOE back in the day with his band ENERTIA and UNTAMED (now UNTAYMED) before that. One of todays reissue labels that has released some big bands is actually interested in releasing our material in 2011. I have also played my old stuff on my radio show, and got quite a bit of positive feedback as well.

Anyways I will post a full song from my old band and let you have at it since I'm sure you will hate this style of music. Again I never said it was brilliantly produced I said it was "decent" and better than this Air Force demo.

BTW this was recorded in one take and no click track unfortunately. Recorded in May of 1994.

http://www.themetalmadman.com/LovinChild.mp3

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Who said anything about having to be an "expert" on protools? I am no expert in photoshop but I know a lot of simple but useful tricks that come in handy. So you have to be an expert in order to learn any software? Surely someone could learn enough to at least make a decent recording.

Why are people getting to the point where they are willing to "settle" on a decent recording rather than a great one? It's very sad to see. Then again, if that's one of the things the "fan" will have to endure to get his free downloads, then I'm sure the "fan" will be fine with that.

Anyways I will post a full song from my old band and let you have at it since I'm sure you will hate this style of music.

Why are you so sure that I would hate that style of music? Have you ever read any of my posts?

c.

 

[Metaldrumz]

Why are people getting to the point where they are willing to "settle" on a decent recording rather than a great one? It's very sad to see. Then again, if that's one of the things the "fan" will have to endure to get his free downloads, then I'm sure the "fan" will be fine with that.

Why are you so sure that I would hate that style of music? Have you ever read any of my posts?

c.

Thats where the misunderstanding is. I prefer stellar productions but for a demo I would settle for decent. I am very picky when it comes to productions and its one of the reasons I started my rant in this thread in the 1st place. I like those top notch productions but I do undertand that its not always realistic due to some of the points you made.

Well you called me out, and I've put the song out here for you to hear. Again I'm not claiming its a great production....I'm claiming that for 500.00 and done in 1994 it is better than that Air Force done in 2010 with high caliber talent.

 

[dcowboys311]

Well, that makes no sense - there are also a ton of bands out there who have no idea on how to write a good song that also releases music and expect us to take it seriously.

Agreed. The difference is, we don't take the bands who write good songs seriously, despite their expectations. Why should we take something like this seriously?

Ahhh, but that's the root of the whole problem ... DOWNLOADING takes money away from so many people ...

Someone STEALS the protools program = the guys who made it won't be making money on the sales

Someone learns on their own to produce an album = the producers are without a job

The thing is that you, the consumers, don't seem to realize that in the end you are going to be hammered with less quality products and more of the self-produced "shit sounding / demo sounding" albums.

Completely disagree with you here, but in the interest of not derailing this thread any further, I'm not going to get into it. If you're interested in debating this, I'd be glad to in another thread.

It's bad for the paid producers who suddenly are out of a job.
It's bad for you, the consumer, when you get a product that hasn't been in the hands of a professional studio engineer and or producer.

I realize that this isn't a perfect comparison, but it's the same principal:
It's bad for the telegraph companies when telephones sneak up and take their market share.
It's bad for the cassette manufacturers when people start buying CDs.
It's bad for the CRT monitor makers when LCD screens start becoming more widespread.

My point is, perhaps these jobs are becoming more dated and less necessary? Obviously there will still always be need for them in certain styles of music, but I don't see this need in most styles of metal.

Where does this "cheap studios" idea come from?
You know the old saying that "with peanuts you can only buy monkies", right? If it's cheap it's typically because it's lesser quality.

I should have clarified here -- cheap home studios. Speaking from personal experience, I know of at least 3 separate 'home studios' that specialize in metal in the Atlanta area alone. I'm making the assumption that Atlanta is not an outlier, and that most major cities are like this. These places all have very, very good sound and are run by knowledgeable people, and you'll get a great sounding recording. The word 'cheap' is relative here.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Thats where the misunderstanding is. I prefer stellar productions but for a demo I would settle for decent.

Okay, I think we went off in two different tangents then. I was talking about productions IN GENERAL will be suffering in the years to come. You apparently were only referring to demos.

I honestly couldn't care less how a demo sounds - I'm listening for 2 things in a demo:
1) songwriting
2) musical abilities of all musicians

I'm claiming that for 500.00 and done in 1994 it is better than that Air Force done in 2010 with high caliber talent.

I still haven't listened to Air Force, but I listened to your demo

 

[dcowboys311]

Why are people getting to the point where they are willing to "settle" on a decent recording rather than a great one? It's very sad to see. Then again, if that's one of the things the "fan" will have to endure to get his free downloads, then I'm sure the "fan" will be fine with that.

I'm sure this won't apply to many people, but I HATE overproduced albums. The new High on Fire is a perfect example. It's just too...clean...for that band. I'd take a 'decent' recording over a 'great' one most days, but that's due to my personal preference. It has nothing to do with the ways, both legal and illegal, that I acquire my music.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

I should have clarified here -- cheap home studios. Speaking from personal experience, I know of at least 3 separate 'home studios' that specialize in metal in the Atlanta area alone. I'm making the assumption that Atlanta is not an outlier, and that most major cities are like this. These places all have very, very good sound and are run by knowledgeable people, and you'll get a great sounding recording. The word 'cheap' is relative here.

Do me a favor - call up those three studios and let me know what it would cost to record an album there, spending 18 days tracking, 10 days mixing and 2 days mastering the album. We're talking about 8 hours a day.

"Cheap" is a relative word.

What I'm claiming is that the days where labels paid the bands enough to go in a studio for 4 weeks are long gone. Unless you sell 20.000 + albums, that's just not happening.

c.

 

[Metaldrumz]

I still haven't listened to Air Force, but I listened to your demo

We were MOMMY DEAREST from Albany NY. Cotton Hill Studios I believe is still in business where the recording was done.

http://www.myspace.com/mommydearestrocks

"Back in the early 90s three guys from Upstate NY had a vision. To put together one of the Capital Districts best Hard Rock bands. The result would be MOMMY DEAREST.

Mommy Dearest/Rain would record a 4 song demo in 1994, and a 3 song follow up demo in 1995. The band eventually appeared on Z Rock's battle of the bands, and beat out Prog Metal newcomers WHISKEY GYPSY.

The band had a great sound and would be compared to other classic bands such as Great White, Dokken, Tesla, Cinderella, Van Halen, and others.

Mommy Dearest would eventually break up with the whole grunge movement moving in the 90s, and some other issues as well."

Some people have a hard time believing thats me in the pictures haha (reunion pic with me and the guitarist from 2008 is in the photo section).