Airwindows NC-17 Obscenely Loudenator

[jinxtigr]

It's an AU for Macs so some of you can go

http://www.jinxtigr.com/f/NC17Demo.dmg (also in the full demo collection)

I have to tread carefully 'cos I got invited into the GS Slate thread and posted this-
FG-X: http://www.slatedigital.com/fgdemo/Rock2FGX.wav
NC-17: http://www.jinxtigr.com/m/Rock2NC17.wav

and a guy said 'I want it to SOUND distorted, wtf?' and I posted this:

http://www.jinxtigr.com/m/NC17SMASH.wav

and I'd had to go +14 dB to get the same amount of distortedness of the other guy, which was twice as loud as FG-X could do, and various people in the slate bunker were all like

That was fun

So YEAH- though I am about as socially diplomatic as, well, a metalhead (but more than a Gearslutz poster or Slate henchman ) I did this thing. It's way more distorted than FG-X is supposed to be, but it's the only other thing out there working on the same general principle, and it has some characteristics that might come in handy for those who can use Audio Units.

It has middier, punchier fake-bass than the much slower, fatter FG-X fake-bass, which means that for those of you making really fast, punchy stuff it will help there. Kicks more like ZZ Top than Pink Floyd.

It softens the highs a bit instead of making zingy fake highs, so it'll be harder to get modernistic sounds out of it (sounds kinda retro) but it will not go into crackling artifacts with your guitar tones. (That's coming off the treble of the guitars, not from having too much bass- if the Slate thing is able to grab onto highs from the guitars, not good, it'll crackle with them)

It will not do anything like giving an impression of clean at really high levels, it sounds a lil' dirty- but instead of shattering when pushed too hard, it just smoothly gets dirtier and dirtier as you go to levels ridiculously beyond anything else, and that's gotta be useful to some of you.

It WILL throw just a bit of intersample overs (you can get the free SSL plug for showing analog intersample overs here- http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/x-ism/index.asp ) but that's with the Slate source file, which already throws more overs than the NC-17 version even before making it any louder- and the FG-X version bombs the meter with more overs than either. (Ozone bombs the meter too- but Voxengo Elephant throws NO overs at all- good job!)

I think that sums things up nicely, and I'm staying out of Slate threads with it as I'm fed up- if he would like to tell me that I am making up misinformation and lies that FG-X throws analog overs, on a metal forum with some pretty savvy posters after I've just linked them to the SSL meter that accurately registers those overs, then he will have talked obvious nonsense twice: and I don't think he can get mods to spank me here

Feel free to check in here for reality check, I'm just as quick to analyze the faults of my NC-17. Some people won't like the sort of softened tubey overdrive quality of it. But when you try to make a loudenator that can go +14 without screaming and fainting in a shower of trebly artifacts and fake rumble, something ALWAYS has to give, so with mine it's the grunged-out overdrive you get, instead of crackling. It might be easier to mix into- it's also AU only so for many of you it's a moot point

Also, some people are looking at NC-17 as a drum bus overdrive to replace clippers- it will put across more bass than a clipper, I know that.

Also, if you use an NC-17 as a sort of afterburner following FG-X and add just the 1.7 dB or so NC-17 loses to insertion loss (it's freeing up that much headroom at zero boost, but not using it yet), you then get no analog overs on the SSL meter.

Cheers

NC-17's homepage is here. http://www.airwindows.com/nc-17.html

-Chris Johnson

 

[Kazrog]

Thanks for posting this!

EDIT: removed my initial feedback. See my post below. Sorry!

 

[jinxtigr]

No problem- I like hearing where people are actually coming from, don't be gentle. I've said before that I'd prefer (for instance) Meshuggah heard over FG-X because it's more important to define the points on things. I'm hearing a similar vibe on your Backmask stuff and understand why your preferences are as they are Weirds me out a bit- snare TAILS and not snare attacks? I thought it does less to the tails, but you might be able to point out something I'm missing. I assume you're not referring to the 'smash' version? The first two are the ones at comparable level, the smash one is +14 and nobody's put up an FG-X at +14 that I know of.

You're probably thinking of the part with the vocals where the arrangement's more open, and critiquing the way the snare hits decay? I'm not hearing a HUGE difference but I agree the NC-17 smooths off some of the snare decay highs. Pet peeve? I'm sorry it's not working for you- I might not be your guy in that case, I liked what it did because to me it gelled the sounds together. I felt like the FG-X made things maybe a bit MORE clicky and MORE crispy, which isn't to my taste but might go really well with your sound...

I suspect each might find soul-mates in very different metal genres- ironically, I like your stuff's sound a lot but my coding doesn't often play to that, it goes in other directions I usually try to get digital to not have too much separation, and it looks like it's influenced NC-17. The interesting thing is that it still goes to the same loudness and bigness, but with a very different flavor that to you tastes like soot and poo

 

[updog]

thanks, I'll check it!

 

[Kazrog]

Chris, I apologize. I really should have put more thought into my post. I was in such a hurry to check the clips out that I didn't notice that you're the guy behind AirWindows. Feeling very stupid, actually. I suppose it doesn't matter, I gave my knee jerk reaction (being very tired at the time) and it was honest. Not nicely delivered (at all), but honest in a dumb sort of way. I barely remember even typing it, actually, it makes me cringe reading my post now, so I've removed it until I have something more intelligent to say.

So, I really think I need to put some time in with NC-17, because as I've said about FG-X, it's very important to tweak a mix to make the most of the mastering chain. Pure a/b tests with the same mix may show what is different, but they don't show the potential of each plugin. Like all other a/b tests in the audio world, these things need to be taken with a grain of salt, and individual taste matters most in terms of what tools get used on what material. Also, the differences were very subtle, which is a testament to the strength of your algorithms.

I take back what I said about smearing the audio information all over the place. It's not accurate or respectful of what's going on. I sincerely apologize and I will provide more meaningful feedback as time permits.

I'd also like to say that I've been highly impressed with your plugins in the recent past, and that they would likely be a part of my sessions if Cubase supported AU plugins. You're doing amazing, cutting edge work that deserves wider recognition than it's gotten so far. Anyone who keeps their ear to the ground about the plugin market already knows this about AirWindows - and if anything it's (ironically) your past reputation for greatness that set me up for initial disappointment.

Thanks for being so cool about this!

 

[jinxtigr]

WHOA

Dude, put that BACK! That's fucking good information! What the hell?

Sure, find a way to run AUs on Cubase (such as NI Kore, apparently) but for fuck's sake don't roll back your immediate gut reaction! That's MORE important than the thought-out reaction!

If you were freakin' Dr John doing greasy funky tube-mud voodoo mixes- or say the Cramps, etc- your immediate gut reaction would be the opposite one! The fact that you were like 'that snare tail went horrible for me' is really important and SUBJECTIVE. Dude, I learned something from that. I learned that some not-tonal noises (like snare rattle decay) don't improve as much as other sounds from getting 'gelled': that sound LIKES being broken up and gritted a bit, and it makes total sense.

I could end up with a snare-tail plugin that does the opposite of gelling on the back of that, you did good!

 

[006]

Any way of making a VST version for mac? For now I've been using Reaper just to use this, not familiar with it's editing/menus/everything so it's a little time consuming compared to if I could use it in Cubase.

Also, to be perfectly honest, the drums have more pop to them in the FG-X version of the clips. I still like NC-17 more though, plus it actually shows up!

 

[jinxtigr]

Not doing VST at this time- I'm just one guy supporting like 100 plugins and a userbase across lots of OS versions and DAW hosts. I have to depend on other people to make wrappers to reach other platforms, not prepared to start trying to dual-release everything at this point

 

[ParsonsMatt]

Do want Windows VST

 

[Kazrog]

The aspects of my initial reaction I still feel the same about are these, but I can articulate them more specifically now:

• FG-X preserves attacks, NC-17 does this but also enhances decays.
• FG-X maintains separation, NC-17 does more of the "glue" thing

I wasn't liking NC-17 on Slate's song because I found the snare decays to be very distracting. But other than that the difference was very subtle, and overall the plugins are quite similar.

I think I might be able to use SoundFlower to patch your plugins into Cubase from another host. I'm going to give that a try and report back.

But you're right - you effectively have what could be a jump-off point for a transient designer type of plugin. It's impressive that it's able to be that radical on one instrument when applied to an entire stereo mix.

 

[jinxtigr]

I'm also wanting to talk to anyone using Native Instruments Kore or Kore 2. That hardware can load Mac AUs and run them. I bet anything mine work fine on it- nothing outside the AU spec at all- and if the hardware can load AUs ON Windows, all you have to do is be able to open a DMG and put the file on Kore and you're done.

Because the thing is, I'm distributing on a Mac disk-image file format, but there are ways to open those on Windows... and I do NOT use installer programs that have to run on a Mac. So if you have any, ANY kind of working wrapper that runs on Windows (like a hardware DSP!) you're good to go...

 

[jinxtigr]

Oh, and

• FG-X preserves attacks, NC-17 does this but also enhances decays.
• FG-X maintains separation, NC-17 does more of the "glue" thing

• FG-X augments bass, NC-17 does this but a lot faster and midbassier.

You'd totally have noticed if it wasn't- this is one of the most impressive things FG-X does, and it's a new thing. And in a lot of ways FG-X's manner of augmenting bass works along with modern metal fashion- it doesn't get in the way of a clicky kick, and there's a huge anti-muddyness hole in the lows response for the added energy, a big notch. NC-17 tends to interfere with a notch like that if you have one, filling in some of the frequencies you took out. But that also makes it kick faster and harder on stuff that doesn't have that sculpted type of kick drum sound. Again a matter of taste and what you can live with- though I like the fact that the fake energy NC-17 adds is very unsculpted. I think it's more flexible that way

 

[jinxtigr]

I ought to mention that there's two reasons I've kinda stopped being an enormous douche over Slate things, one obvious and one not...

One, I got spanked over at slut-land for how obsessive I was being. Before that, I hadn't had an unkind PM since 2006- don't know why I felt that I'd be hearing via PM if it was REALLY an issue, but I guess I assumed there would be a 'cut that shit out' PM and that public stuff was allowed to be contentious. I'm more comfortable with contentious, so I assumed if I was being honest it'd be all cool- tend to be first to pick up on stuff. Now, the tone and vibe behind that draw on reason two, which I need to be upfront about.

Two, I was royally butthurt for personal reasons I didn't feel I could talk about. I was leaning on ADClip (such as it was) to make me enough money to take my cat to the vet (one of 'em anyway). He had cancer, and it started getting bigger and bigger. He was a real trooper, Neville was- he liked sitting in my lap when I stoked the woodstove (pretending to be a scandinavian black metal guy ) and by the time I got a couple thousand bucks together from other things and got him to the vet, ready to do what it took, it was too late. It had become inoperable. So I spent the entire fall, winter and spring hanging out with my very affectionate doomed cat as the tumor got more huge and grotesque, constantly thinking of whether I could have got it in time. Who knows?

The point is, this shouldn't have drove me fucking insane the way it did. Cat-dude did not make it to another winter around the woodstove he loved on so much- I took him to the vet a couple months ago, he's dead (I held him as he went and looked into his eyes as he left them.) It ain't like Slate gave my cat cancer- and it was my responsibility to compete for the money I needed. Maybe it would have been better to whine and be all Sally Struthers. I felt it was too personal, but the stress of it turned me into an enormous douche for which I am sorry.

I'm not done competing straight up in the world of plugins. I _am_ done nursing a fucking obsessive hate-gasm, a change that was partly due to public shaming on GS and partly because this cancerous cat is no longer needing me to cuddle him and his humongous deadly tumor of doom and keep faith with him. Now that he's dead I can fucking get over it to some extent.

Cuddling the humongous tumor of doom and going, I love you and one day I'll kill you when the pain is too great, is definitely FUCKING METAL if you ask me.

 

[JeffTD]

If you had a Mac VST, I'd be interested.


Odd marketing strategy, though - You mention Slate's product far too often, whether you name it or not. I want to hear why yours is good, not why his sucks. "Those guys are worse" is not the greatest campaign strategy (someone should seriously fill the democrats in on this one before november hits )

 

[wishtheend]

While this does get things loud, i find it far from clean or transparent. It seems to do some weird roll off in order to achieve this loudness. I am finding I get much better results, especially when the goal is to keep the mix sounding the same, with FG-X.

 

[jinxtigr]

Odd marketing strategy, though - You mention Slate's product far too often, whether you name it or not. I want to hear why yours is good, not why his sucks. "Those guys are worse" is not the greatest campaign strategy (someone should seriously fill the democrats in on this one before november hits )

Yeah, I know- I'm definitely trying to straighten my head out around that. It's been a weird year

 

[colonel kurtz]

If you had a Mac VST, I'd be interested.


Odd marketing strategy, though - You mention Slate's product far too often, whether you name it or not. I want to hear why yours is good, not why his sucks. "Those guys are worse" is not the greatest campaign strategy (someone should seriously fill the democrats in on this one before november hits )

i'm guessing it came off that way because his plug was released around the same time as the slate FX, which was being touted as the hottest new shit around and damn near being treated like the new "standard" before even being released!

 

[jinxtigr]

i'm guessing it came off that way because his plug was released around the same time as the slate FX, which was being touted as the hottest new shit around and damn near being treated like the new "standard" before even being released!

Yeah, but it didn't help me to react to that so hard. I mean, yeah, for personal reasons it got ALL up my ass sidewise, and yeah, that behavior absolutely killed my loudenator sales for half a year- I had a type of processor Slate literally shouted out as being terrible- but I got played bigtime, and I'll own that. I gotta do better.

I'm working on an alternate way of getting loudness that isn't as graceful with REALLY stupid loud but sounds a lot cleaner for mildly-stupid-loud: when it's done there won't be any comparisons. It'll be coming out of ADClip, so ADClip users will get it free. My only concern is if I add controls to ADClip, some saved tracks won't work in some DAWs. Logic will just add the new controls as defaults, but I know that at least AU Lab will scream and die if the control layout doesn't match what it saved. With that you have to have the old plugin, open the project with it there, remove it, save, close the program, reopen it with the new plug there, and load the new version with different controls. So it's a concern to me, how it's implemented... maybe I'll just change the name slightly and let it be known, 'with all the controls off, this IS ADClip'.

I'll put in some work on that today.

 

[jinxtigr]

While this does get things loud, i find it far from clean or transparent. It seems to do some weird roll off in order to achieve this loudness. I am finding I get much better results, especially when the goal is to keep the mix sounding the same, with FG-X.

Cool- yeah, it totally does. How's this work for ya?

http://www.airwindows.com/3dclip.html

Here's the 3DClip demo

Be careful- if you ever bought ADClip don't buy this because you already got it free and I'd only have to do a refund at my own expense it's treated as an 'update' for ADClip, because if you roll off the treble and bass retain controls it IS ADClip, twice