Ambassador on snare for heavy music?

Erkan

Erkan

mr-walker.bandcamp
Jun 16, 2008
3,305
5
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Uppsala, Sweden
mr-walker.bandcamp.com
Anyone tried that and what was the results?

I bought an Ambassador snare drumhead a long time ago and it's time to replace some drumheads soon and I have discovered I don't like too thick drumheads on toms for example, because they just muffle the shit up and don't translate well into the mics. I wonder if the same goes for the snare in studio environment? Logic tells me a thin head will give me a nice snappy and cracky sound or am I completely wrong?

I'm putting together an order from thomann so I'm thinking I should ask if anyone has any tips on what head to choose for studio :) I have never tried Evans on the snare by the way, except for once and it's the one I'm using right now... the snarehead with the tiny holes in it (I always forget its name). It's ok, but it would be fun with something new and even more kickass if possible! :)

A big problem so far has been that the snare is often kinda dull for me with an SM57 so the more crack and highend I get, the better. I've heard some of the guys' snares here with only 1 mic and it sounds fucking awesome.
 
A big problem so far has been that the snare is often kinda dull for me with an SM57 so the more crack and highend I get, the better. I've heard some of the guys' snares here with only 1 mic and it sounds fucking awesome.
Click to expand...

compression and eq pretty much gets you to the ball park, single mic in this one:

before: http://www.ahjteam.com/upload/freeware_mixproject_snip-03-noplugins.mp3
after: http://www.ahjteam.com/upload/freeware_mixproject_snip-03.mp3

freeware_mixproject-snare.jpg


The the original thread was this one: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/483993-idea-compare-our-techniques.html
 
Coated Amb or Evans G1 are great on snare. Evans G2 are also great, but a bit more muffled/less snare response.

The Evans Dry heads are good if you've got a really pingy shell IME, I used them on a brass Pearl Free Floater, those heads were the only ones that sounded good on that drum to me.
 
Thanks for the tips so far and thank you Ahjteam for the brief explanation of your processing. It's not much different from what I do now, but I still tend to feel that I'm not getting THE snare sound without going for sample enhancement... but I guess in time and with more practise, I'll get there.

EVANS 14" GENERA HDD COATED SNARE is the name of the head I'm currently using and although it is a great snarehead, I must try new stuff or I'll be stuck with the same old and not gain any experience.

To elaborate further (now that I am not sleepy), I have a 14" Pearl Free Floating Maple Snare (think it's 5,5" in depth). I'm not exactly sure of what snare sound I want for my next project but I'm really in love with those chunky woody CRACK! type of sounds like on Sikth's Death of a Dead Day album for example. Maybe something a little rawer with more overtones, since the overtones kinda disappear in the mix anyway but still add some flavor to the snare. I think the Genera HDD snarehead might've been a little bit too dry actually... since it is marketed as "very very dry sound!" on thomann.de so.. :)

Maybe I should continue on the Evans line and get a G1 then, or is that pretty much the same as Ambassador? G2 should be heavier I guess, and maybe somewhere between the very dry Genera HDD and Ambassador. I suppose that's where I would want to be for my next project... something not as dry as my current head and something not as pingy as... I don't know, a really pingy head. I haven't really tried much other than Powerstroke 3, Pinstripe and Genera HDD on my snare so far.
 
I know what you mean about the dullness of the snare. I got the same thing a few days ago and it's not a matter of processing. Lasse posted some very nice raw tracks of drums he had tracked without processing and the snare just has the crisp highs and is as a whole very defined. He used an sm 57 and so did I. Must be the snare drum, the heads, the room or the position of the mic. The room will be the most difficult thing to recreate, but you could mess around with the other things. I don't have a room for drum tracking so I rarely record drums and can't be of much help.
 
I've been using Remo Vintage A WeatherKing heads on my snare for the last few years.

I've found it to be the best fit overall. I can tune them up very high and get a nice crack, without losing the low end power and impact I want to have from the snare.

Every other head I tried was just too difficult to get a balance of the crack and thud all at once.

http://www.remo.com/portal/products/3/8/50/702/co_vintage_a.html
 
Shadow_Walker said:
Lasse posted some very nice raw tracks of drums he had tracked without processing and the snare just has the crisp highs and is as a whole very defined.
Click to expand...

I also noticed that Lasse's tracks have a lot more bleed than mine do.. I think he positions his snare mic further away - less of a proximity effect, and the bleed doesn't matter so much because he sample replaces/supplements to eliminate bleed.
I prefer putting the mic closer - you get a fatter (albeit duller) sound, with much less bleed.

A little high shelf of 2dB is really all I need to get the highs in. A bottom mic helps a LOT with the highs as well, sometimes you don't even need to boost the top mic's highs.

The problem I have is getting a really fat snare without a bunch of bleed.. like on Come Clarity. I go to use parallel compression on the snare to fatten it up and the cymbals and hihats bleed in like crazy.


As for the Erkan's original point.. I'm using an Ambassador on my 14" Pearl Brass Freefloater and loving it. It does need some muffling otherwise its got some overtones that make it sound really cheap.. I need to get some moongel cos my temporary 'muffling' keeps falling off as I play XD.

Here's a raw sample: SM57 > FP10.
http://files.getdropbox.com/u/324723/Morgoe Snare.mp3
 
I put the mic slightly in from the rim and got this: http://switched.muzikant.org/Snare top_30.mp3
Not too much bleed but pretty dull.
And since I posted it, I want to ask you why do you think the snare in my clip has this nasty ..."poing" sound in it. Is it the tuning (we tried a lot of different tunings and didn't sound better) or is it the snare drum? It was some wooden Pearl, I forgot the exact name.

Also, does anyone know what snare drum was used for Andy's samples?
 
Heh, I think both of you guys get better snare sounds than I do, assuming they are raw.

You know... this is such a dilemma. I'm in a situation where it would yield MUCH better results to simply program the drums or atleast trigger the whole kit, and use good sounding samples instead of micing up my kit with my unprofessional mics in an unprofessional room (it's not even a studio, just a rehearsal place with no spectacular sounding room). It's like the same case as a guitarist who has an amp and a cab but no place to record other than in his apartment, and he would probably get better tones going all software. Now, the important thing is that - A: if I continue with micing my kit up and stuff, I learn much more but - B: programming/triggering will yield so much better sound quality and what matters at the end of the day? The sound...

No client is going to give a damn if I'm good at micing my kit, as long as I get a good sound. It sucks to choose between getting better with micing technique (even though I'm under bad circumstances for micing up and so on) or getting intant studio quality drum sound.

Fuck... I have 156 hours of work scheduled for July, which almost makes me feel like it is justifiable to buy a kit of Ddrum Pro Triggers and a drum module.. or maybe Drumagog instead of a drum module.

Wow, I just turned this thread in a whole 'nother freakin' direction! From snare head to contemplating what is the optimal thing to do next.. :)
 
Depends what you want.. all my favourite drum sounds have been completely (or almost completely) natural drums. So I really want to go that way.

On the other hand, its almost impossible to get 'that' metal sound now without sample replacement, plus you need a ton of editing, plus you need a good drummer, good mics, good kit, good room, SOUNDPROOFED room.. a lot more expensive.


Erkan, can you post some raw samples of the drum sounds you're getting (perhaps from your black metal project?). You have very similar drums to me (I also have export, and same snare except with a brass shell). Can't say I get GREAT sounds (yet) but if you think yours sounds a lot worse than mine I could help. The most important thing, I've discovered, is tuning. I thought I knew how to tune, but now after mixing, and getting used to the 'core tone', on a snare around 200hz, on a kick like 50-70. When you tune with that tone in mind, ignoring the overtones, you can get some killer sounds. My kick is sounding better than ever IN THE ROOM (no mics), even with 2 year old skins.
 
Erkan said:
Heh, I think both of you guys get better snare sounds than I do, assuming they are raw.

You know... this is such a dilemma. I'm in a situation where it would yield MUCH better results to simply program the drums or atleast trigger the whole kit, and use good sounding samples instead of micing up my kit with my unprofessional mics in an unprofessional room (it's not even a studio, just a rehearsal place with no spectacular sounding room). It's like the same case as a guitarist who has an amp and a cab but no place to record other than in his apartment, and he would probably get better tones going all software. Now, the important thing is that - A: if I continue with micing my kit up and stuff, I learn much more but - B: programming/triggering will yield so much better sound quality and what matters at the end of the day? The sound...

No client is going to give a damn if I'm good at micing my kit, as long as I get a good sound. It sucks to choose between getting better with micing technique (even though I'm under bad circumstances for micing up and so on) or getting intant studio quality drum sound.

Fuck... I have 156 hours of work scheduled for July, which almost makes me feel like it is justifiable to buy a kit of Ddrum Pro Triggers and a drum module.. or maybe Drumagog instead of a drum module.

Wow, I just turned this thread in a whole 'nother freakin' direction! From snare head to contemplating what is the optimal thing to do next.. :)
Click to expand...

Frankly, I'd rather learn than necessariyl achieve the better sound option. In the long-run, knowledge is more powerful than the sound you got on some tune you recorded years ago.

However, if you're dealing with clients or something, I suppose sound is more important. And of course, you WILL learn even if you use triggers or program, you'll just be leanring different stuff.
 
This may not be the sound you're looking for, but I had a friend back in the mid 80's who was the best FOH engineer I had EVER worked with! Granted, he mostly mixed hair metal bands, but he had the most massive live snare sound! It was SO powerful, it pounded your chest like an earthquake! He had the normal chain, graphic eq and compressor inserted on the channel, with some verb on the snare. 57 top and bottom. But his secret was the way he tuned the snare. I freaked when he showed me! The top snare head was SO loose, it nearly flapped! A lot of drummers will not like this due to the difficulty in doing rolls with the head so loose. But, if you have a power drummer that just whacks the snare relentlessly, you might like it if you give it try! :kickass:
 
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