Andy you the man, along with a few others...

[moose209]

I was standing at the bar on friday night with the dude that builds black machine guitars (www.blackmachine.co.uk) they fucking rock! - anyway we had hired this club out for a mates birthday and had turned a normally sleazy house club into a dirty filthy metal bar full of degenerates and low lifes - when what should come on the pa but when darkness falls by KSE. Both myself and my bar fly mate looked at eachother and went - fuck that blows everything else we're hearing away in terms of clarity, punch and sonic impact. But the main thing that got me was the space.

I wish to know how you build/decide on what space the music is going to exist in - am I making sense here. Like Mike Stavrou mentions in his book - Albums like dark side of the moon have an infinite quality to them - the have this stage in which everything resides. A black canvass on which the 'ghosts' between the speakers perform.

I am at a loss on how to do this - I try placing a bit of each sound in a room - granted I may have shit reverbs/delays so this may be my problem. Is it really just dependant on sanre/vox treatment? Or is there something else there.

Even if Andy doesn't answer - maybe some of you other great geezers out know what I'm speaking of and can enlighten me to as what made the penny drop - the moment of "ahhhh...now I get it!"

Cheer guys - this is one of the few cool forums out there that dont involve naked people bumping uglies.

 

[metalkingdom]

A black canvass on which the 'ghosts' between the speakers perform.

Man, that is a great quote! Love it.

Those guitars look like an Ibanez RG raped and impregnated a Parker Fly.

Everytime Andy's work comes on my mp3 player after other stuff, I get the same exact feeling that you're talking about. Awesome.

For me, the "space" thing just sorta happened with time. You know, time and space go hand in hand.

 

[moose209]

Quote "Those guitars look like an Ibanez RG raped and impregnated a Parker Fly"

That is sick!


I'm glad its not just me that notices the unreal world created in some tracks and the (boring) reverb created in othersuke:
So Mk what is your approach to the space thing? - and none of this Jedi mumbo jumbo!

 

[metalkingdom]

Well, it really is mostly a "feel" thing for me. Try experimenting with short delays instead of verb and you'll be able to move individual instruments around in the stereo field easier. I think that Andy frequently uses the Digirack verb for drums, if you can believe that one.

 

[moose209]

Haha,

I can belive it as the non linear setting can be quite appealing - but I guess you have to really work on where it sits in the mix.

I'll look into short delays - thanks man.

Its weird that such a subliminal thing makes all the difference - in my opinion its what makes a song really special as opposed to just special. Like I say only a few albums now days seem to have this quality - Tool Lateralus is a prime example and ofcourse KSE - whatever the fuck it was called - no disraspect I just cant remember the name of it

Its an interesting area of music - to me at least :Smokin: I guess at heart I'm just a hippy.

 

[lepersmeesa]

Me playing one at LGS. Played the other 8 string as well round my mates house. He owns two 6's as well. Oh, how i want a Blackmachine. The guys name is Doug.

Moose, are you the live bass player in Tesseract? Acle told me your name once, shit memory. haha, sorry. You know Doug is developing a blackmachine bass?

 

[moose209]

Yes and Yes. And possibly Yes again

I was speaking to doug about it last friday - sounds nice - a long way off though - I think I've convinced him to use a musicman and a j pick up! Identicle to my current sweet as sounding bass. I dont car if it takes years to be made - it'll still be awesome and when I get the cash I'll buy one.

Gone way OT here but how dya know Acle? He THE man! I really enjoying bending my head learning to sit in the pocket of all those fucked up tesseract grooves. t'll be awesome when we get the live band up and running.

Anyway enough of www.blackmachine.co.uk and me and my efforts back to the subject in hand - yime space and the existential quality of andy's mixes

 

[lepersmeesa]

Yeah, I know Browne better then I know Acle. Live in London not MK. Just chat to Acle now and then on MSN. Met him at Textures few weeks back. What a great gig.

Back on topic!

 

[Matt Smith]

That 3D/space thing is something I really notice about Colin's mixes as well.

 

[moose209]

That 3D/space thing is something I really notice about Colin's mixes as well.

Definately his later work - sorry that makes it sound like he's passed on - didnt mean it like that colin.

If you check a lot of the analog era's true greats they just have this world in which they sit. Alan Parsons is an example - but people like george martin are not - deferent generations I suppose - another example of Andy's stage making is on Nevermore's last album - that has a very dark space.

Man, as with sooo many things in this game I guess its just a matter of time - trying different approaches and always having that goal at the back of your mind. I'm just an impatient mofo who wants his cake now! The only common element I've noticed is that each element in the mix is very neat and only exists when it is playing/featuring.

If you listen to Soad - very very crunchy and distorted and a very live performance - which has a great vibe but I can't hear the music in a stage _ I hear the music - just blam in my face - great style still! But all the instruments are very raw and seemingly unpolished and as with many things that involve rick rubin are somewhat messy if you run a fine comb over things - not a bad thing at all - but perhaps a contributing factor to creating this space I'm in love with. I'll shall whittle the fuck out of my next mix and see if it helps with allowing this energy to be felt at all times.

 

[Seizure.]

I'm having the EXACT same thoughts as you moose... hahaha..

But dude, you have a guy who's AWESOME in creating cool listening spaces! ACLE! that guy has some of the most spacious shit around IMO!
I'd say check what he is doing!

 

[moose209]

Hell yeah he has made some awesome spaces - I'm gonna pester him into giving me his files and see whats going on - the fact that its all done in the box impresses me - it still lacks that desk summing that I like - a mate of mine is buying a neve summing buss - I'll see if we can put the tracks through that to add seperation to the sounds. I am definately realising it is just a matter of time and as metak kingdom mentioned earlier space and time go hand in hand - theres never a fucking short cut in the business is there!

bollox

 

[Seizure.]

Indeed!
I don't know how much a summing bus will help... most people i talked too say its only 5% of the whole battle for a cool sound.

Btw.. do you remember which masterbuss compressor acle uses?

 

[moose209]

Btw.. do you remember which masterbuss compressor acle uses?

Haven't asked him but I would hazard a guess at the following:

C4 (as a mud supressor) and L2 (as a brickwall)

I'll ask him when he gets back from his holidays.

I cant hear the crunch of the L2 but I think he learnt a lot from Thomas Haarks dfhs settings, and that what Haark used. Personally I hate the L2. The Rcomp is much nicer.

 

[A Toolish Circle]

^ i'm pretty sure Acle uses something much different to that , i've asked him before and althougt i can't remember exactly ? like sonic maximisers and Ozone i think plus another compressor over the top ? and his DBX

but yea fuck dude u've got acle....to me he's amazinggggg

 

[moose209]

Yup you've just awakened a dark region of my brain - sonic maximiser bbe on the some of the individual guitar tracks and to add a bit of punch to the mix bus.

not my cup of tea - but definately works on TesseracT!

 

[A Toolish Circle]

I would say the issue u're having can't be solved with one trick or a couple of tricks.....

i think 1st of all the recorded material u have has to compliment each other... the bass tones occupy their territory and so do the guitars , etc etc right mics that compliment the singer as well as the music, and when that fails, i can see why andy requests Guitar DIs for reamping and Bass DIs as well as triggers for the drums.

i think looking at reverbs / delays is just one side of the issue. U need to think of ur EQ spectrum for all the instruments and know how to eq them right so they themselves create space for each other.

i think panning is really important , i know everyone here has certain panning laws and so i suggest using auxillary tracks ( extra production tracks ) that aren't important that have a sorta rule of thumb to panning( e.g guitars at L100 R100) and be creative with them . it can occupy up other spaces and create an illusion of space too. a lot of people also mix kicks snares and bass and vocals dead centre and that's too many things cluttered up in the centre
. sometimes i do this : snare top L4 , trigger Center , Snare Bottom R4 . and it creates a chunky snare. or u can use double take vox and push them L10 , R10

lastly , be creative with automation. sometimes riding different things at different parts give a different vibe and enhance different sections of the song. for example: for big choruses i like to pump the overheads a bit more with compression and ride it like andy wallace , but i'll leave my verses clean.

so on and forth

hope this helps

Regards
Roland

 

[moose209]

After creating a track for exploring this very topic and spending some hours attempting to create spaces - I think I'm on the right track now.

Basically Masking causes the reverbs/echos I've been using to dissapear or smear into a mud. So by really whittling down all the sounds to whats important and giving each element a part of the spectrum I've started to really feel the rooms I want to put my instruments in. I know it sounds simple but until you spend time learning to listen, you really have no idea what your aiming/listening for. It's the same with those fucking C4 settings it has taken me hours of playing around to hear what it is I'm achieving.

Still not as lush as dark side of the moon but give me a few more years and I'll get there. My next thing is deciding what should be in focus and what should be background - and how to achieve this.

Fucking hell - distorted guitars are a bitch to correct - if its wrong on the way in it'll always be wrong!

Cheers for the input guys.

Anymore?