Another music-writing thread, but this time about incorporating others

[Metaltastic]

So I have no trouble writing music myself; I've been recording scratch guitar tracks and programming drums (and occasionally penciling in synths) for years now, and consistently creating stuff I personally am really proud of. However, the problem is that I inevitably kinda become the band tyrant in practices, especially with the drummer. So far I've had the pleasure of playing with drummers who pretty much learn what I program as if it's a cover song (though I'm open to variations on the beats, I'm usually pretty adamant about the basic feel of the beat, e.g. half-time/full-time, cymbal choice, etc.), but I don't expect this to always be the case, and I would feel like too much of a dick putting something like "must be willing to yield to my musical vision" on future wanted ads

Basically, the only way I feel comfortable writing music is sitting at a computer with a guitar in hand and Reaper up on screen, and since it's no trouble for the other guitarist to drop by and help out, that takes care of satisfying his (or her, haha right ) creative input (or he/she can write stuff on his/her own time and bring it over and we can build on it). But having the drummer there for those sessions I'd imagine would get really boring for him/her, since he (fuck it, I'm dropping the pretense ) couldn't really contribute much to the RIFFZ, and of course the drums inevitably follow them the way I write.

Also, I DESPISE "jamming" to write music; I feel like that always leads to very dull and traditional sounding stuff, cuz creativity is sacrificed for the sake of everyone being able to pick it up pretty quickly. So yeah, basically, how do you guys write music and get everyone involved? Or should I just stop caring and continue to be lord of the band? (and I always let the bassist and vocalist write their own parts, so it's really just a matter of the drummer)

 

[Skinny Viking]

I write almost everything. Guitars, basslines, keys, drums and split lyrics & vocal melodies about 50/50.

Drums I just get the ideas and program them out but only very basic versions of everything unless I have a really specific section that actually determines how another part is to be played (a bass line or melody of sorts). For the most part, I'm trying to achieve a feel more than an actual part with some exceptions here and there. I want my drummer writing his own shit. I'm not a drummer and don't really think like one. I do come up with some pretty interesting rhythms / feels/ ect .. and sometimes my drummer will want to keep it that way but the fact is nothing can take the place of a talented drummer for drum parts. Usually we'll go back and forth over a lot of things and just see what works and what doesn't but like you, its not jamming to write (I fuckin hate that too). The song is mostly fleshed out or done by the time I start working with the drummer

So anyway, point is if you're comfortable and work best the way you do, continue doing it and don't give a fuck what a drummer might say. I think you may burn through a few drummers doing it that way but if it works for you, do it. I personally look forward to a talented drummer coming in, listening to what I've written and saying it sounds really cool but he has an idea he'd like to try for a part or whatever. So far that has usually yielded some really awesome results that I wouldn't have expected or been able to come up with on my own.

 

[Chryst Krispies]

I just don't play in a "band" band for that reason. I have "projects."

 

[Agonal]

They joined your band for a reason. If they didn't like what you write they wouldn't have joined. I know how you feel though as far as the tyrant. I write all the music even though everyone else in the band is very talented and fluent in theory. They just dont know how to write where our music should go. Our keyboard player is big into non metal stuff like coldplay and he can't write dark metal for shit even though he knows all theory. Maybe try and convert the other members of your band into liking all the music you draw inspiration from.

You will probably eventually catch hell for being the "tryant" but oh well you can always find replacements if you are really the main creator of the music.

Just get meat puppets.

 

[John_C]

i write almost all the material for my band, but drums is a tricky one.
I can often hear roughly what i want for a riff in my head, but it's always good to have a really talented drummer interpret my vision so to speak.

Also, i think jamming has a lot to be said for, just so long as you fulfil one of the following
a. you're writing very simple music

or

b. you're working with brillinat musicians who can pick up complex stuff fast

or

c. you work in 2s or 3s. Jamming with just a drummer can create some cool shit!

just how things work out for me though, "user experience may differ"

 

[abyssofdreams]

Well the way it could work without any big compromises from both parts looks like this:

Keep in mind, I'm a drummer myself so...whenever someone writes a song and has some drums in mind I try to play those but when I feel like my own understanding to play drums surpasses the ability of the guitarist (or insert some other player here) I'll suggest those ideas to the writer. After all I'm only suggesting things where I think they could improve the song one way or the other. If anyone doesn't feel comfy playing a certain part it should be addressed. But IMHO someone has to be the driving force, too much democracy doesn't work. Remember that Akerfeldt interview a while back? I think he was being honest and elegant with his statement and I feel like it is true (about him being the mainwriter but appreciating the ideas others bring in IF they go along with the flow of the song bladida...).

 

[Moonlight_Seeker]

I made a band this way : I composed an album on midi files, back then I didn't know about vst and all that. Then when the album was all composed I searched for musicians. The deal was "do you want to play those songs, yes or no?". So I found all the musicians that way.

And then we practice the songs and playing it live and writing on midi is two very different things. So of course the songs are not exactly the same.

We had two drummers in our little story. The first one was pretty good live but in studio very medium. He didn't have a whole lot of musical knowledge and etc. And he played what I composed 95%. Then we had a new drummer who knows much more about music and plays drums all day long every day, he's like a drum nerd. So he changed the songs because I really don't have the mind of a very experienced drummer. But when the snare is at 2 and 4, the snare remains at 2 and 4, but he inserted some insane fills and other things that surely have names and it sounds very cool.

So basically, in my point of view, when a band has one principle composer, the idea is to get the best musicians possible who already love the songs you composed and then you let them have fun. Because having fun is the basis of being in a band and you're supposed to be with good musicians. So I see the midis has the skeleton of the song and the jamming the fleshy human part and the studio has the ultra human with super powers part. Or something.

 

[Joematthews]

Guitar pro is the best thing ever for song writing... All our songs we play live bar 1 have come from me or eddie (the other guitarist) writing perhaps 2 to 3 ideas for a song. After we have come up with a couple of little things we send the song to each other, and we'll add parts and send it back and forth until we have something to learn to jam. Then we'll jam it out until we have a song worthy and ready enough to play live.

I think the reason why this works is...

1) We are both good at writing drums and our drummer follows the feel of the drums and adds his own fills and fancy bits. He likes this because he has something to follow, yet isn't restricted to whatever we tell him. Occasionly if we just play something randomly he will come up with everything on his own and we'll write it into guitar pro but this doesn't happen often.

2) We are willing to compromise and send idea's back and forth a lot.

3) We both dictate the music direction of the songs, so you get 2 different styles to make everything more interesting.

I wouldn't want to work with a guitarist who is a pushover and will play whatever I give him, nor would I want to play everything someone gives me. For a band to be close I think everyone has to have their bit. Same goes for drums, the drummer has got to have his own spin on things otherwise he'll have nothing to be proud of, same with bassist.

But most importantly, make sure all the songwriters have guitar pro and go back and forth between you.

Joe

 

[Unavailable]

As a drummer, I'd be perfectly happy with a guitarist telling me what kind of beats to use as long as I get to customize/personalize them to my liking. Helps me, because sometimes I'm at a loss for what feel a riff needs, and the one who wrote the riff would have a much better idea.

+1 on jamming to write music. I hate that. Improvisation never works for me. I like to sit down and plan out everything measure by measure.

 

[jrt12]

i'm jealous of you songwriters that can come up with drum parts as well. i really dont think like a drummer and wish i heard beats as clearly as i do melodies

 

[Erkan]

Almost 2 years now, I've been alone in the music writing biz. But back when my band was active, we had me and the vocalist writing most riffs. It worked back then, but then the band broke up and shit but I still jam with 2 of those guys.

Before the break up, our vocalist left the band and we felt a great relief because he was too much of a dominator in the band. We felt like we could relax and just write music that fit everyone in the band, so we decided to do it very democratic and on equal terms. The result is this: (that's right, nothing)

I have to go with that democracy is bullshit when it comes to songwriting. Most bands need one or two who writes the majority of the stuff. This is what my experience tells me so far, and I don't see it changing so.... be the tyrant you gotta be. The others might think it sucks but hey, then it's their responsibility to turn the tide and make it not suck and if they won't do that, they'll end up dropping out.

About jamming or planning the music, I'd say both of it works for me. The stuff me and one of my guitarist friends can come up with when we jam is insane... it's like, jazz meets metal meets disco, haha, it's awesome. When I make my own music, I usually sit with my guitar and good ol' Ableton Live and just improvise until I have something, then record and repeat.

 

[Erkan]

i'm jealous of you songwriters that can come up with drum parts as well. i really dont think like a drummer and wish i heard beats as clearly as i do melodies

This is interesting. In no way am I bragging now but I seem to get the occasional comment, saying that my riffs are very cool/nice or whatever every now and then, like when I post some ideas or things I could use for reamp testing etc, and I think it might have to do with the fact that I'm first and foremost a drummer, but I'm forced to be able to play the guitar in order to write music... so I think it makes me think a bit different than a real guitarist.

So what I'm saying is, maybe you should start playing a little drums, I think it could change your thought patterns drastically... well I'm not sure but trying wouldn't hurt You don't have to own a drumkit, just grab some phone catalogues or whatever and whack away, but learn "real" beats and stuff. It's amazing how fast you learn the drum basics in the beginning.

 

[Erik Monsonis]

I do the music, then send to the rest of the guys. They do their homework, then we go to the rehearshal room and put it all together. Pretty simple.

 

[Metaltastic]

I do the music, then send to the rest of the guys. They do their homework, then we go to the rehearshal room and put it all together. Pretty simple.

Haha, pretty simple for you, but best hope they continue to stay comfortable with having zero creative input in the band they're in! That said, it's not like I can argue with you cuz I do things in a very similar way - I guess I just constantly feel a bit of guilt for it (not in any way doubting my material or abilities, just being the generally sympathetic/empathetic person I am - that said, I'd obviously NEVER compromise the song to appease someone else's creativity, lest anyone confuse being a sympathetic person with being a pushover!)

Anyway, thanks for the tips (and reassurances of the virtues of tyranny ) guys, much appreciated! And as for drums, I think I'm pretty damn good at programming 'em; I may not be a drummer, but I know how to listen to drum beats I like, analyze why I like 'em, and incorporate them! As I mentioned, though, I'm always open to suggestion by the guy who's actually gonna be playing 'em!

 

[Erik Monsonis]

Hehe, yeah, well, when I started this band it was only me, so I had total creative freedom.
When I started looking for musicians, they knew what was going on and how tyrant I can be, and even so they wanted to join.
Of course they can come up with ideas, why not? But they know they'll have to pass thru my approval to stay

I think I could not be in a band in which I'm not allowed to have 100% creativity and 100% control over the picture. I've always been a solo guy

EDIT: I forgot to say the drummer makes his own drum parts based on mine; keyboardist arranges the orchestral sections to 3 keyboards the way he wants; the bassist... eehm, no, he does exactly what I tell him to do ; the other guitarrist does pretty much what I do, but his way (keeping things tight ofc) and to finish with this paragraph, the vocalist makes her own vocal lines along with me at home.

So, when it comes to real, they have plenty of creative input

Best wishes.
-Erik

 

[Erkan]

the bassist... eehm, no, he does exactly what I tell him to do

He does this?



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8BvBtdpQao&playnext=10&playnext_from=QL[/ame]

 

[cobhc]

I remember reading something about Opeth where Mike pretty much writes everything (or used to), and then each band member offers their variations and then it all passes through him before they go with it. But again that's the same as Erik because Mike is the only guy who's been in Opeth since the start.

I think that's the way I'd want it to be if I was in your situation Marcus.

 

[Dom Ostarig]

I DESPISE jamming to write music too.... sounds like to write music without thinking.

 

[Erik Monsonis]

I DESPISE jamming to write music too.... sounds like to write music without thinking.

+1

However, the other day we were rehearshing and when entering to a chorus part I suddenly came with a great idea/riff, so when we ended the song I asked the drummer to play that drum bars again to see if it came again, we jammed along some time and half a song came out.

But that's different to the jamming concept, where people comes with the need to write something to go home with something to work on... that's crap most of the time uke:

 

[Erkan]

I DESPISE jamming to write music too.... sounds like to write music without thinking.

I don't find that as a negative thing AT ALL. If I could write without thinking, I'd do it all the time, it would be the purest and most honest form of music EVER MADE. But I can rarely do that without it sounding totally random or just totally crap.

All my riffs and ideas are still from just improvising, but I improvise for like a full hour before I find one or two good riffs that I'm satisfied with.