...another round of Caparison HGS arguements.

[ApolloSpeed]

ok guys, before I go to build my damn guitar......I'm still thinking about what Caparison is doing with their HGS model guitars....

25.5" neck, bridge mounted 3mm back = Drop C, B, or A tuning capable.

So, just wondering if I should try this or a variation of this instead of getting a big ass Warmoth 28.625" neck!

25.5" necks are sooo much easier to play, but unfortunately all our songs are in drop A.....And I like the sound of drop A, I just don't prefer the "feel" of it.

 

[egan.]

ok guys, before I go to build my damn guitar......I'm still thinking about what Caparison is doing with their HGS model guitars....

25.5" neck, bridge mounted 3mm back = Drop C, B, or A tuning capable.

So, just wondering if I should try this or a variation of this instead of getting a big ass Warmoth 28.625" neck!

25.5" necks are sooo much easier to play, but unfortunately all our songs are in drop A.....And I like the sound of drop A, I just don't prefer the "feel" of it.

Maybe I'm doing the math wrong in my head but if you are making the scale longer by moving the bridge you are still changing the scale. So wouldn't your frets need to be in a different place than on a neck built for 25.5" scale?

 

[JeffTD]

I'm telling you - the HGS's don't give the feel of a baritone at all - it'll feel identical to a 25.5 scale, because that's what it is.

Egan - that's what I thought at first, but they move the bridge back 3mm to allow better intonation of the low strings - sometimes, even with the saddle pulled all the way back, low tuned, thick strings don't intonate perfectly, and this is how they get around it.

 

[JBroll]

Sounds to me like they are using the same scale and fret lengths in heavier strings, the only accomodation being that of an adjustment that's within most bridges' range as it is, leading to significant confusion (at least on my part) as to why they bother making a note of it at all. Three millimeters is not big at all, so if you're going for that kind of thing with a standard scale and you can't intonate the bridge with proper strings, I'd send the bugger back and make them give me one that did.

DSS3, what bridges are these that can't intonate thick strings? I have never heard specifics as to which ones can't intonate, nor have I had intonation problems with either of my guitars (a FR and a T-O-M-String Through), I'd better avoid those things.

Personally, I'd go with a longer scale length because while it does make the frets bigger, it also allows for a significantly lower action. I think there's a good reason why most 7s are at least an inch longer than the averave 6, and I've never played an extended scale that was hard to get accustomed to after a few minutes of play, so for Drop A I'd go to about 28-29". Then again, I already play with a 70 on my Schecter in Bb, so if you're the kind who can make do with 9s or 10s in standard, by all means ignore me.

Jeff

 

[JeffTD]

I've never had a problem on TOM's or Floyds with strings up to 60 (all I've tried), but I have had problems on Fender style bridges.

Most 7's are 25.5 - there are quite a few baritone, but it's definitely the minority.

The point of a bari scale isn't for lower action or bigger frets, it's for a tighter feel and sound without having to use insanely huge string guages. I've never had a baritone get lower action than a standard, or even short scale guitar.

 

[cobrahead1030]

when it comes to intonation, 3mm can make a huge difference

there's no way to make a list of what guitars can intonate well with heavy/low tuned strings, and which ones can't...that will depend on the specific guitar, strings, and what you're tuned to

i believe the idea behind the HGS system is to ensure that the guitar can indeed be intonated properly with low tunings, with most other guitars it would be a crapshoot

the scale length is something that is a matter each player's preference...i strongly prefer short scales because when standing up mainly, they're the easiest for me to play wierd chord voicings and tough lead passages on...i can do ok with a long scale, and actually prefer them sometimes for heavy rhythm playing as they have a stiffer feel...i've never played a baritone that i liked the feel of @ all, if i wanted to go that low a long scale 7 string would fit the bill for me

there was a time when scale lenght never bothered me so much, since i've really started taking my playing seriously tho and trying to nail my parts right on a more consistent basis it's become a bigger issue

 

[JBroll]

DSS3, I know that lower action isn't the point, but when you're having trouble with those chunky strings anyway a lower action can be easily appreciated. Higher tension is the point, and with higher tension comes lower possible action because the higher tension reduces the width of the string vibration, and this is why I'm on the side of longer scales (and bigger strings).

Cobrahead, I'm not saying it won't - I just don't know of too many bridges that don't have that much play in them already. If I had either the money to check one of these out or a friend who happened to own one, I'd love to play one, but at present neither of those are possible paths to figuring out what this whole Caparison talk is about, so I'm just going to wait for a good reason not to just go for a Schecter baritone (or four, for the price).

Jeff

 

[egan.]

Ahhh. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I skimmed right over the 3mm part. So basically it's just a more adjustable saddle?
I can see the benifits for sure--- but the way folks talk about HGS I expected something more revolutionary. Still a wise idea.

 

[cobrahead1030]

i'm pretty sure most guitars could intonate fine with any strings you'd wanna use, especially 25.5" scale ones...but i have seen a few that won't (a friend of mine has a BC Rich warlock, he uses 10-60's, and it absolutely will not intonate properly...it drives me crazy to hear that guitar because he's a hell of a player, but ALWAYS out of tune)

the 3 mm (as i understand it) is just to ensure without a doubt that the HGS guitars aren't in that minority that can't be intonated correctly...i don't really understand what exactly it is about some guitars with some strings/tunings that you can't set them up very well, wood kinda takes on a mind of it's own sometimes

i've not played any of the HGS models, but i hung out with peter from the absence and played a few of his horus' they are some very sweet guitars...not sure if they're worth the $1800 price tag, but they're easily as nice as any superstrat i've played

 

[Mark_Palangio]

"About HGS (Heavy Gauge Strings)
This unique design was produced due to requests from Caparison endorsees.
The design itself employs heavy gauge strings (10-52) for tuning down, popular in the modern metal scene. The bridge position is mounted 3mm further along than regularly seen on other guitars; this is to help when adjusting heavy gauge strings to lower pitches. (On a standard guitar bridge saddles tend to be stretched back around the rear of their full travel to alow for correct intonation.
In addition, the pickup position is changed in relation to the altered bridge position.
The HGS eliminates the need for Drop C and Drop B players to shift baritone guitars in their quest for a properly intonated low tuned guitar. No need to adjust one's playing style to suit a longer neck and differently spaced frets.
The Caparison HGS range has also proven reliable for regular tuning with heavy gauge strings and holds just as perfectly with "dropped" D tuning."

 

[006]

I seriously don't get how this concept is hard to conceive. The point of the freakin bridge being moved back actually does nothing to the guitar in any major way. It has to do with the saddles. Here is a picture to better understand.

With a traditional bridge/guitar to get the intonation for heavier strings and lower tunings the saddles would have to be all the way back...and that's just shitty. With the HGS system, the saddles are in "the same place", however there is more room for adjustment if needed. So...like I said, the saddles are in the same place, it's just the actual bridge they are connected to is moved back 3mm.

~e.a

 

[LSD-Studio]

i thought the first thread described it pretty well, what else is there to understand about it?

 

[nwright]

I just don't know of too many bridges that don't have that much play in them already.

Jeff

There are plenty. Having enough "play" isn't as important as having enough room to move the saddles back for downtuning, not just play to move them forward or back.

 

[Sweetnothing]

Try to have a downtuned PRS with stop tail intonated...it drives me nuts basically...
You can't have all strings perfectly intonated, due to the bridge's design.
That's one example.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Maybe I'm doing the math wrong in my head but if you are making the scale longer by moving the bridge you are still changing the scale. So wouldn't your frets need to be in a different place than on a neck built for 25.5" scale?

this is correct as far as i know. it seems like a gimmick considering most bridges have adjustments that range over more than 3mm. It's just a quick fix for thicker strings, and the way people gush over Caparison, well I won't get started.

 

[Carrier Flux]

I've never had a problem on TOM's or Floyds with strings up to 60 (all I've tried), but I have had problems on Fender style bridges.

Most 7's are 25.5 - there are quite a few baritone, but it's definitely the minority.

The point of a bari scale isn't for lower action or bigger frets, it's for a tighter feel and sound without having to use insanely huge string guages. I've never had a baritone get lower action than a standard, or even short scale guitar.

I was having problems with my Ibanez s540 (floyd rose) adjusting intonation for low B tuning until I moved to a .64 string. that made all the difference. .60 just wasn't doing it. plopped a .64 on there and wa-lah!

 

[JBroll]

There are plenty. Having enough "play" isn't as important as having enough room to move the saddles back for downtuning, not just play to move them forward or back.

Um, I refer to free space to move shit around for intonation as 'play', just to clear that up.

Mark, is that string gauge a typo? I have to make sure - 10-52 is not heavy by any definition I've heard. For B, I'd consider above 12-65 to be heavy, am I in a parallel universe as far as strings go?

Jeff