Anyone have some advice for FOH?

[arvoitus]

I'm a beginner and i want to learn FOH. I know there are some live engineers here and i hope some of you can give me advice.

I'm having a bit trouble with getting the kickdrum right. The previous time i used a AKG D12 and a Sennheiser E602 because the drummer has 2 kickdrums (useless, i know).
I just put the mic in the hole of the front skin. With the drumhead "cupping" the mic capsule.

I'm having trouble with getting a really punchy/clicky kicksound (for a devildriver like drumsound). The kicksound was really dull with very little high-end. Not suitable at all.
I had very little time, so i couldn't experiment much with the eq.

I already searched and i found this advice: Trying to place the mic in the kickdrum with the mic close to the beater. Would this help?

Does anyone have some advice for the kicksound and other things?

Already got this:
1. Enable 100hz highpass on each channel except kickdrum, bassguitar and floor tom.
2. Cut frequencies on bass guitar, boost the same freq on kickdrum.

Thank you!

 

[if6was9]

With the kick, I usually just place the mic( I use either a beta52a or usually a D6) just inside the hole, pointed towards the beater. Make sure the padding inside the kick isn't too much and isn't getting between the mic and the beater, some drummers stuff the crap out of their kicks and makes it hard to get any clarity out of it.
Eq wise I usually suck out a good bit of the low mids and boost the high shelf and boost the click frequency I like. The frequecies you need to go at really vary depending on the system and kick you're using. For fast metal there's a good chance you'll have to use the low shelf to cut the low end even more, really depends on the kick sound you're after- sometimes I end up dialing in more low end here, other times cutting it a load.
If you've got gates, definately gate the kick and keep the release pretty short so that the kicks nice and punchy.
What really helps the kick out is keeping tabs on the low end of everything else, then tailoring it between the bass and kick, giving each their own space.

 

[egan.]

EQ violently if needed.

 

[arvoitus]

EQ violently if needed.

Well, the last time (also the first time) i did FOH for a band i was a bit in a hurry. I couldn't try much out and i was a bit overwhelmed. EQ-ing with a parametric EQ is a bit harder because you have less possibility's.

Is it normal that you have to cut 10db to 15db?

 

[if6was9]

With metal kicks you really have to be brutal with it sometimes to get the punchy click of it

 

[ahjteam]

my recipe for success is choosing the right microphone. You can't get D112 to sound violent even if you tried... Try Audix D6 or a pzm microphone like Sennheiser e901 or Shure beta91 + dbx 166XL as an insert. super fast gate, medium compression and limiter light occasionally lighting up. You can get it sounding more brutal than a trigger if you dial it in correctly.

 

[arvoitus]

With the kick, I usually just place the mic( I use either a beta52a or usually a D6) just inside the hole, pointed towards the beater. Make sure the padding inside the kick isn't too much and isn't getting between the mic and the beater, some drummers stuff the crap out of their kicks and makes it hard to get any clarity out of it.
Eq wise I usually suck out a good bit of the low mids and boost the high shelf and boost the click frequency I like. The frequecies you need to go at really vary depending on the system and kick you're using. For fast metal there's a good chance you'll have to use the low shelf to cut the low end even more, really depends on the kick sound you're after- sometimes I end up dialing in more low end here, other times cutting it a load.
If you've got gates, definately gate the kick and keep the release pretty short so that the kicks nice and punchy.
What really helps the kick out is keeping tabs on the low end of everything else, then tailoring it between the bass and kick, giving each their own space.

Alright, cool advice. I don't have to luxury to pick my own mic's, and i usually have to do it with the provided mic's.
Next time when i have enough time, i'll try to go crazy on the kick.

my recipe for success is choosing the right microphone. You can't get D112 to sound violent even if you tried... Try Audix D6 or a pzm microphone like Sennheiser e901 or Shure beta91 + dbx 166XL as an insert. super fast gate, medium compression and limiter light occasionally lighting up. You can get it sounding more brutal than a trigger if you dial it in correctly.

Most venues have the DBX comp/gate, i'll try to experiment the comp and gate's.

 

[Paulie!]

I usually suck the mids out aswell, and if I have access to a compresser (which was rare in the shit holes my old bands played in..) I'd give it a medium-heavy dose of it..

-P

 

[christopher ridley]

EQ
Boost 40 if needed for low. Cut 400 to remove boxyness. Boost 3-5k for click. Boost 10-12k for air.

Gate
1ms attack. 100ms release. 0ms hold.

Compressor
15ms attack. 100ms release. 4:1 ratio. Dial threshold to get about 8db reduction.

Limiter
Dial threshold to hit the limiter occasionally. Not every hit, but not every 20 hits.

Placement
Go mostly to completely inside the port hole and aim off axis to the beater.

Start here and see how it goes.

 

[arv_foh]

Well if the guy has a shitty, dead kick sound you can boost the shit out of every frequency you can think of and it's not going to have any attack. You should have absolutely no problem getting a decent clicky kick with a sennheiser e602, if the drummer has a decent kick sound. They are great kick mics. Audix D6 is also a great choice for clicky kicks. D112 is dogshit, in my opinion. I hate them. You should get 2 of the same mic if you are going to be doing kits with 2 kick drums.

Sticking it in the drum closer to the beater will definitely give you more attack but the low end will suffer and you either have to do a drastic boost to the lows or use a 2nd mic for at the hole. And yes it is normal to boost/cut up to 15dB if necessary.

Boost 3k for attack
Boost 8k for click
Cut 250-400 area
Boost 63 for teh boom

 

[HeadCrusher]

EQ
Boost 40 if needed for low. Cut 400 to remove boxyness. Boost 3-5k for click. Boost 10-12k for air.

Good luck doing that on a mixing desk that has a fixed 60 hz low shelf/12k hz high shelf and two parametric mids. Should be interesting as more and more venues get digital desks though.

 

[xFkx]

EQ
Boost 40 if needed for low. Cut 400 to remove boxyness. Boost 3-5k for click. Boost 10-12k for air.

Gate
1ms attack. 100ms release. 0ms hold.

Compressor
15ms attack. 100ms release. 4:1 ratio. Dial threshold to get about 8db reduction.

Limiter
Dial threshold to hit the limiter occasionally. Not every hit, but not every 20 hits.

Dude, if i'd ever work on a FOH desk/outboard that allows me for such control then i'd propably wet myself

 

[if6was9]

Good luck doing that on a mixing desk that has a fixed 60 hz low shelf/12k hz high shelf and two parametric mids. Should be interesting as more and more venues get digital desks though.

Exactly- Hell here in Ireland a good few of the regular gig spots don't have any outboard or any decent desks. Sure there's a few that do but not all that many.

 

[SimonTaddio_Qc]

Dude, if i'd ever work on a FOH desk/outboard that allows me for such control then i'd propably wet myself

Hahaha, yeah I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[Charlie E.]

Yup digital boards are definitely becoming more popular and allow for that much control.
It was a pretty sweet deal for me going into live sound from a recording background and being able to dial in eq settings just as I did in my daw and being able to save scenes.

As mentioned before, a different mic and/or placing it closer to the beater plus eq'ing should yield clickier results.

 

[christopher ridley]

Eh... maybe I'm engineering at nicer places...

Asks for advice, I give him advice, I get railed for giving too much advice. Sounds about right.

 

[ahjteam]

Dude, if i'd ever work on a FOH desk/outboard that allows me for such control then i'd propably wet myself

Welcome to my workstation this summer: Starlight nightclub at Silja Galaxy passanger cruiser. Capacity is something like 2000 if all the extra chairs are taken away, but currently it's around 500... I have Yamaha M7CL (48channels) + Yamaha 01 (16channels) + lexicon and tc outboard processors in use. Also helluva lot video and light stuff I have no idea what they are (except the light controller is MA Lighting Grand MA). Do note that all but 6 channels on the mixer are in use; That makes total of 58 channels in use. And it only has 2 bands connected.

 

[christopher ridley]

Great board. Mixed on one tonight!

 

[joelplagues]

Welcome to my workstation this summer: Starlight nightclub at Silja Galaxy passanger cruiser. Capacity is something like 2000 if all the extra chairs are taken away, but currently it's around 500... I have Yamaha M7CL (48channels) + Yamaha 01 (16channels) + lexicon and tc outboard processors in use. Also helluva lot video and light stuff I have no idea what they are (except the light controller is MA Lighting Grand MA). Do note that all but 6 channels on the mixer are in use; That makes total of 58 channels in use. And it only has 2 bands connected.

This is the console I've been working on and my only complaint and others i work with agree.
WE'D LOVE!!!! individual pan pots for each track lol. no really biggy though ahaha

but the great thing about working on a yamaha digital desk is that they try to carry alot of the features over too smaller and larger models. I worked on a 16 track digital desk recently for a night and it was easy to figure out because of these same features being carried over.

 

[xFkx]

Eh... maybe I'm engineering at nicer places...

Asks for advice, I give him advice, I get railed for giving too much advice. Sounds about right.

Hey, I didn't want to come off too offensive, really.. if i'd have an oppourtunity to work on such consoles i'd be stellar. Just wanted to point out that it's not that common yet to have such possibilities. In Poland only top pop acts are provided with digital consoles. If you're playing shows in the metal/hardcore scene, then a low-end mackie or yamaha are your best bet