Anyone using Metal Foundry ?

[lolzgreg]

Hhhhhmmmmm ...... A kick and snare were replaced! Wow, that so makes SSD pwn MF! Have you tried processing MFs kick and snare? Some here have with "fantastic" results.
Dude, they are both great! One pwning the other? Cmon!

:Smug:

I was one of the first people to own Metal Foundry on this forum, for what I know. Yes, I've spent plenty of time processing the kick and snare and have gotten "good/fantastic" as well as "bad" results.

Your argument is very pretentious indeed. Here's why:

What are the two most prevalent "instruments" in the drum mix? I'm going to go with the kick and the snare. You hear them more than everything else, since they are used in nearly every part of the composition of a drum part in MOST cases AND are almost always made VERY audible, especially in metal music. Using a "different sample" is a huge deal, it can make or break the low of end of your entire mix when it comes to your kick or control how dominating the drive of the song is in the case of the snare. In the case I posted, they are both APPROPRIATE for the song, but one is clearly fatter and more powerful.

So your sarcastic little comment "wow, a kick and a snare were replaced, big deal." Oh wait, yeah, it IS. How about I go back in time and prevent Lars Ulrich from using the final snare on St. Anger? People would stop bitching about how miserable that album is production and songwriting wise ESPECIALLY the snare drum sound. I wonder if the way a snare sounds is important...

Why is that good..? You wouldn't ever use the same processing on two completely different sources o.0

Completely different sources? Where did you get THAT one from? ANY kick drum and ANY snare drum in the metal genre is going to likely be eq'd, transient filtered, compressed and or limited. You're telling me that it changes THAT MUCH from source to source? Were not talking apples and oranges here, we're talking apples and apples. Macintosh or red delicious. You could use both in a pie, just like you could use either in a mix, it's just a different flavor. It's a SNARE DRUM, most likely you'll be taking a little bit of 400hz out, you'll definitely be high passing it somewhere. You're going to attempt to make it sound convincing and powerful. It's like you saying "oh yeah, I'm going to apply DRASTICALLY different processing to a 5150 and a Dual Rectifier. Uh, wait, you're probably not. You're going to likely run a boost in front, you're going to keep the bass knob relatively low so it doesn't sound like muddy shit, you're going to mic the speaker AROUND the same area, because that's where it sounds "good."

I think I've made my point. The source matters most in the final product and the source drums of Toontrack's Metal Foundry expansion are inferior to that of those in Steven Slate's Sample packs (including if they are "processed" in the mixer- and if you think Toontrack's drums are raw, you HAVE to be shitting yourself).

 

[lolzgreg]

I wish I had your samples earlier though. Here is a toon track recording i made awhile ago. I needed your snare, bassdrum and tom samples bad and skill too. Here you can listen to me and criticize back. Be prepared for your ears to be raped. Its bad.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=479598&content=songinfo&songID=6209330

I wouldn't really call this bad at all. I will be honest and say that I'm not huge fan of the screaming, sounds like [someone] is holding back. The singing is very nice from what I hear. The playing is good.

The drums don't sound horrible. I will say that these cymbals don't sound real to me. The drums are very "disconnected" from the cymbals though. I would address that.

 

[Morgan C]

Completely different sources? Where did you get THAT one from? ANY kick drum and ANY snare drum in the metal genre is going to likely be eq'd, transient filtered, compressed and or limited. You're telling me that it changes THAT MUCH from source to source? Were not talking apples and oranges here, we're talking apples and apples. Macintosh or red delicious. You could use both in a pie, just like you could use either in a mix, it's just a different flavor. It's a SNARE DRUM, most likely you'll be taking a little bit of 400hz out, you'll definitely be high passing it somewhere. You're going to attempt to make it sound convincing and powerful. It's like you saying "oh yeah, I'm going to apply DRASTICALLY different processing to a 5150 and a Dual Rectifier. Uh, wait, you're probably not. You're going to likely run a boost in front, you're going to keep the bass knob relatively low so it doesn't sound like muddy shit, you're going to mic the speaker AROUND the same area, because that's where it sounds "good."

I think I've made my point. The source matters most in the final product and the source drums of Toontrack's Metal Foundry expansion are inferior to that of those in Steven Slate's Sample packs (including if they are "processed" in the mixer- and if you think Toontrack's drums are raw, you HAVE to be shitting yourself).

The whole reason presets don't (or rarely) work is because there are SO many different things affecting the sounds.

If I take a snare drum that is tuned low and with some muffling, I'm gonna have to let the gate act a little slower otherwise it'll cut off the lowend and make it sound weird, I'm gonna have to scoop more mids out because it'll be tubby, and I might have to compress it more because it won't have as much attack.

If I take a snare drum ala LoG (for an extreme example, and some of the MF snares are tuned that high), I'm gonna have to boost 200hz to make it cut through, I'm gonna have to use surgical EQ to get rid of the few key frequencies that ring out, and maybe boost around 7khz. I can make the gate shorter because the whole sound is over very quickly, and I might have to use more parallel compression to make it sound fatter, but less overall compression because the attack should be suitable.

COMPLETELY different approaches. I can't honestly believe you think that you'd apply the exact same processing on two sources, no matter how similar they are. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm honestly surprised. I may go for similar settings sometimes (often a 30ms attack on a snare comp, but NOT ALWAYS), but I don't ever save presets because to me, they are useless.

Try downloading one of the raw multitracks that people have posted here, and load all the raw tracks into a project that you used for something else. I can GUARANTEE you, it will sound like shit (assuming you don't have Drumagog on everything replacing everything anyway, but even then, guitars/bass/vocals will still not fit right).

And as I said, I've never heard any of Toontrack or Slate stuff first-hand, I've only ever tried the AD demo and that was shit. So I don't know how 'raw' any of them are, but obviously Toontrack's stuff is a lot rawer than Slate's.


Sorry for completely derailing this thread :S

 

[James Murphy]

I just cant get your crash cymbals to sound crisp and like breaking glass. they always have the swoosh, wishywashy sound. They always sound like drum machine cymbals like the old alesis sr16 or something which in my mind that is all I can focus on listening to my clips. My apologies for being so negative and disrespectful. I'm sure it is hard to please all the people all the time. Nut that is what sells more boxes, making it easy to use. The novice should be able to get great sound out of it without getting a degree in engineering.

you had some key words in there, perhaps . Seriously though, my question after reading your post is, why should every single product be geared for "novices"? Slate Drum samples, as best i recall, were originally only in the hands of working mixers, and developed into a consumer product later... they were sought after and touted in part for that very reason. Now we can buy them over the internet with ease, but while many of the samples are processed to varying degrees, should Steven do everything for you? food for thought.

 

[Emdprodukt]

I would like to see people talk about metal foundry in a metal foundry thread. we have a few hundred other threads about lovers/haters of slates samples.

as morgan c said: MF is raw. really raw. but you can process the shit out of it. just takes more time as other options. Doesn't sound like a demo/garage sound to me.

 

[slayercannibalsuffohead]

SSD pwns MF! BULLSHIT!
Im gonna tell my drummer, the next time we jam, leave everything at home, just bring your bass drum and snare! As for one being fatter and more powerful, yes, yes it is. Could you get MF kicks and snares to sound just as good, yourself, no, someone else, yes! Metallicas St Anger was a poor album because of the song writing only, not because of a snare!
I'll say it again, SSD pwns MF? GET ON THE END OF IT, they are both great!

 

[Jaymz]

No worries James

 

[Emdprodukt]

I'll say it again, SSD pwns MF? GET ON THE END OF IT, they are both great!

yep. that's what I think all the time. this stuff is about personal taste. maybe some had trouble getting decent sounds out of MF but it's always like.

I like my results with MF. I don't have Slate samples and that's why I just don't judge them.

 

[~BURNY~]

Could you get MF kicks and snares to sound just as good, yourself, no, someone else, yes!

Not trying to piss anyone but I don't think so. You can't remove graininess, boxiness or compensate for odd micing technique choices.
All toontrack products have that inherent "weird" (ok that's my opinion) sound quality. Some people seem to like. Good for them. But I've yet to hear something impressive, fat yet polished out of MF.

 

[TheDude]

Oi.

I recorded a quick litle cheesy riff mix thing today replacing Metal Foundry's kick and snare to illustrate why Slate pwns Metal Foundry's Drums (mind the sloppy playing):

NO DIFFERENT PROCESSING IS APPLIED! It is identical both times minus the drumagog insert.

With Slate: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1569935/Mix With Slate+Foundry.mp3
Without Slate: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1569935/Mix With Just Foundry.mp3

How could you make the MF kick and snare sound so bad? That's incredible! Good job!

 

[TheDude]

and if you think Toontrack's drums are raw, you HAVE to be shitting yourself).

As this thread is about the Metal Foundry: Mic-> Neve desk -> ProTools. No eq/compressor/sidechain compression used.

Some of the EZD libraries are processed though, but not all of them.

 

[Ermz]

Not trying to piss anyone but I don't think so. You can't remove graininess, boxiness or compensate for odd micing technique choices.
All toontrack products have that inherent "weird" (ok that's my opinion) sound quality. Some people seem to like. Good for them. But I've yet to hear something impressive, fat yet polished out of MF.

It's possible to do with the stock SD2.0 snares and toms. The kicks are always sub-par though.

I greatly enjoy the stock snares and rooms. The rooms above all are the best I've worked with, and augment the drum sound VERY well, especially with selective bleed controls.

SD2.0 snare and toms on this clip: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/285689/Forum/Untruth - Drones.mp3

 

[~BURNY~]

Ok, that was probably an overgeneralization on my part. Splatt seems to be doing good with the S2 basic library as well.

 

[Hate81]

Not keen on the drum tones but the cymbals/room sounds are fantastic.

+1

also i find the snares are tuned far to tight for my liking

 

[Emdprodukt]

+1

also i find the snares are tuned far to tight for my liking

yeah they're pretty tight. I like that

 

[Slate]

I have played around with the MF and I dug it in a raw metal kind of way. Its not gonna give you the modern hifi super produced metal sound but its nice for a raw and dirty sound.. instead of trying to make the kick and snare big, try to make them dirtier... lots of midrange and compression... The kick you need to work with a bit but I was able to get useable sounds with eq and a limiter to glue the smack together. Overall I was pleased with MF. Its very different from my stuff and the tunings are not what I usually go for, so it compliments what I have to offer.

 

[BLOODROOT]

you had some key words in there, perhaps . Seriously though, my question after reading your post is, why should every single product be geared for "novices"? Slate Drum samples, as best i recall, were originally only in the hands of working mixers, and developed into a consumer product later... they were sought after and touted in part for that very reason. Now we can buy them over the internet with ease, but while many of the samples are processed to varying degrees, should Steven do everything for you? food for thought.

James. I didn't argue the fact that the weakest link in the chain was me. I've made that clear and taken ownership. My thought, is anytime you market a product to the general public it becomes just that and stops being only for the working mixers. I really cant see a real producer using his cymbals or the kontakt player. Perhaps they would i dunno. I see them micing real cymbals when all possible.

Again for me. its just the crash cymbals. Everything else is amazing or very usable for different situations. what is the key to getting his cymbals to sound real and usable? I tried compression, EQ and reverb and still got the woosh sound and everyone sounded exactly the same no matter the velocity.

Perhaps from another perspective.... Did Steven Slate leave them plain as plain gets for the sake of those who can make them sound right(knowledgeable mixers). I dunno. But from the average guy perspective, the general public can buy these and will, when they don't get good results will do as I did and blame the product to an extent. You have 1000 average Joe's saying the product is OK and 5 producers disputing it. Most people are going to side with the mob. Then the product is labeled as subpar. People usually complain about the bad and don't say a word about the good. I would like to see the unprocessed cymbals for you pros and processed for tards like me on the cd. Also like I said. It's difficult to please all the people all of the time. Its Slates product. He can do what he wishes to do with it. I just added my experience. Only he knows why it is certain ways. I'm just the end user. perhaps I own a product that I shouldn't. Like someone who is a poor driver owning a Lamborghini. I guess the cymbals are perfect and there is no need to ever improve the product. Perhaps there's no need for another version of Slate drums unless it says "Designed for the professional engineer only" on the box.

There are all kinds of different ways to look at it. I'm not trying to start huge arguments or anything either, so please don't take my text wrong. I'm just voicing thoughts. If the cymbals are perfect then any guidance on how to make them sound decent. let me know.

 

[James Murphy]

lol... never said the "cymbals were perfect". i wouldn't know... i haven't checked them out, neither the SSD cymbals nor the MF cymbals.... because, as you hit upon, i use the real cymbals that i mic and record live on my sessions. i'm sure i already mentioned that in one of my posts here.

regarding your "another perspective"... pointless, since you misunderstood the whole point i was making apparently; SSD originated (again, to the best of my knowledge), as a personal service Steven provided for various mixers. it has now commercialized and expanded. and clearly some of the samples are processed to varying degrees (though why anyone really wanting to learn to mix would want only that sort of thing always, i don't get... but i digress), while others are not. thing is, there is no way to please "5 producers" equally across the board, so there damned sure is no way to please "1000 average joes" across the board... these things being awfully subjective and all.

and anyway, wait a sec... didn't i just read you say that you're on about one sample? or one subset, the crashes? either way it sounds like you like everything else... so you're what, 95% satisfied? 90%? i can't recall a time i was that satisfied with anything i've bought. 90% satisfied with a set of samples = win, in my book.

FTR, i don't have the latest versions of Slate samples... i still just have V1.5. i contacted Steven about upgrading to 2.0 a while back and he asked me to email him my details, which i did... but i never heard back from him again. so i'm speaking in general here, and not from any personal knowledge of the latest versions. i gather you're also not that happy with the Kontact player, and i sympathize... i've used other products that have licensed that player, and i've never liked it. i do understand why Steven likely went that route... far cheaper to license an existing platform, in the short-term, than to pay the R&D to develop a proprietary software engine... but hang out... because it's not necessarily the best route for the long-term, financially (if you only go fishing once a year you're better off just renting a boat for that day... if you go every day, you'd save money buying your own boat). This was the ToonTrack path, some of you may recall: 1.0 and 1.5 were just raw samples and a few player formats, like Battery, etc. DFH2 came with a licensed Kontact player, then they introduced Superior with a proprietary player app... so a proprietary application/plug-in is a likely eventuality, would be my guess.

 

[Machinated]

Steven nailed it here - MF is great for dirtier sounding stuff, it's not really at all comparable to slates stuff at all. The avatar expansion is closer to slates stuff but they still offer different things.

I actually bought TMF just for dirtier samples as there isn't really a lot else offering that.

 

[beechstudio]

I think what sold me on the Metal Foundry was the whole ambient feel to the kit, (room mics and such), not necassarily kick sound, snare sound etc.. The kit as a whole just sounded so powerful just from the samples I heard on the site. That's why I asked the opinions of those who own MF to get their perspective. And, I agree with what Steven said that MF and the Slate drums are different and would compliment each other nicely. It's awesome to have all these options at our fingertips! Thank's for the replies guys! Keep 'em coming!