Attn: Seattle folks

freewill said:
No...

Its that the United States Government needs to be seen as all powerful. They need the public to believe these ideas that they were in fact behind 9/11 so they might appear to be so strong and tactical that they could pull off a terrorist attack on themselves. Our government actually PUT THOSE CONSPIRACIES OUT THERE, in order to spread the word that they are dangerous and not to be reckoned with.

as for who took the dump in the urinal...

initially, I thought that it was Cartman. Judging his character by his previous actions, I was sure that he would be the type to shit in a urinal. Other Suspects were Craig and Kenny(thought he might of done it for some money). Now throughout the hunt for the people REALLY behind 9/11 I found myself distracted, no doubt the entire purpose of Stan going on the trip with Kyle, since it does come out the Stan took the shit in the urinal. Needless to say, i was stunned. Funny as it is, I wouldnt expect Stan, the little boy in the red-poofball hat to do something like that.
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I love that episode!

I couldn't possibly deny everything you said. What you're saying and what the tinfoil hat-wearers are saying are two different things, however.
 
Fuck Bill Maher. I thought I liked him at one point in time, but holy shit is he a snob that needs to get decked...
 
Dead Winter said:
Being aware of intelligence about the probability of something happening then doing nothing about it is criminal, true, but that doesn't mean they purposefully let two planes attack the WTC.

Is it conceivable that it happened? Well, yes, but it's also conceivable that aliens exist.

People need to understand that the US government is not some giant machine that plots about a New World Order or some such nonsense, no matter how many times you show me that stupid George Bush, Sr. speech years ago taken out of context. I know it's easy to believe the hype, but it's simply not true and ridiculous because it's foreign to people here.

NORAD is not ONE ENTITY. It is a network of sectors in Ithaca New York, Panama City Florida, California, and McChord AFB in Tacoma Washington, as well as a Canadian sector in Alberta and Elmendorf AFB, Alaska. We all plug our feed into Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado. Having worked for NORAD, I can tell you that there is nothing flying over the US that they don't know about, but that doesn't mean they have information on every single plane available all the time. Local agencies would be much more informed. They aren't omniscient; they are a deterrent. Lots of planes deviate from flight plans every single day and it is not impervious to human error.

F-14s were not used; F-15Cs and F-16s were. F-14s have been obsolete for years. The F-14 is a Navy jet, not Air Force.

Secondly, you need to understand the mission difference between Air Force Active Duty, Air Force Reserve, and Air National Guard units and what each one entails. The jets you're talking about as they were "so close" (I assume you're talking about 1st AF HQ and the jets in ACC, or Air Combat Command in Langley) is an active duty USAF base. Active duty units stationed stateside are typically not on alert...Air Guard and Reserve is typically on alert and are stationed at Guard and Reserve bases. The active duty commands, ACC or Air Combat Command, PACAF or Pacific Air Forces, and USAFE or US Air Force in Europe all have different missions, with only deployed units acting on alert. Our jets here are not on alert; YOUR jets are on alert. We're there to provide backup, not to be your first line of defense. The same is true in the US with active duty units stationed there. They have other missions and are usually tasked with training for combat missions abroad, not defense...that's what Air Guard and Air Reserve units are mainly for, which is why they were further away.

Do you realize how long it takes to spin-up a jet and get it ready? Hours. There are some that are always there and ready in case but the pilots aren't necessarily on alert. In the Guard units, the PILOTS are on different alerts, and they range from 3 hours to 15 minutes. The shorter alerts are typically in times of war. We weren't at war at the time.

Third, the dominant air-to-air fighter in the world is STILL the F-15C. Langley has F-15s, but they are active duty and not on alert. Other Guard units in the tri-state area have 16s, which have both air-to-air and air-to-ground capability, but the air-to-air capability is much more limited in respect to that of the F-15C. The 16s don't have nearly the same radar capability or standoff capability F-15s have, nor do they have the same "legs" as we call them, which is range. F-15s can get there faster, launch from much further away, and stay up there longer. F-16s are of course used for air defense but only in the absence of F-15 Eagles. THIS is why it took them so long to get on-station, even though Vipers (16s) were in the air as well.

The fact that they scrambled the wrong units is buffoonery on the part of command, not some government conspiracy to delay the scramble order. People fuck up and in the military they fuck up A LOT, whether people want to believe it or not.

I was talking to a friend who's an OSI agent the other day...OSI is Office of Special Investigation, or basically the FBI/CIA of the Air Force...they do counter-terrorism, special operations, etc. He mentioned something profound that often gets overlooked by the world, especially Americans. He said, "It's not that the US military is so good at what it does, it's simply that everyone else sucks so badly at it." It's something I've been saying for years. Again, people think that the US is some giant, perfect machine and that its military operates with uncanny precision. This couldn't be further from the truth. It's just that in comparison to the rest of the world, we simply appear that way.

To put it simply, someone dropped the ball. There is no conspiracy, there is no pretext to war by allowing 9/11 to happen. SOMEONE SIMPLY FUCKED UP. I've seen it happen at all levels of command, from a unit commander to CENTCOM. Hell, THE EXACT SAME THING happened in Alaska when I was there. Two Russian Bears flew right off the west coast of Alaska for the first time in a decade, and the pilots were HALF AN HOUR late scrambling. Everyone involved was disciplined and I think some were even fired. People screw up all the time, and it just so happened that they picked a bad day to screw up on 9/11. Procedures weren't followed and miscommunication and I'm sure complacency played a factor as well, not conspiracy.

You simply don't understand just how big the US military is and how delicate these things are and how they can go wrong in a second. Drawing a line from political malfeasance, knowing it exists everywhere and in every country, and then taking that and somehow reaching the illogical conclusion that because one or two people made a stupid suggestion automatically indicates that the entire government and military were colluding to murder innocent people to start a war is, well, beyond ridiculous.

Military commanders don't need government officials to approve their actions. This is the cornerstone of American and British (and western, for that matter) military policy; it's called centralized command/de-centralized execution. Politicians make policy and the military carries out that policy. As long as we're not talking nuclear launch codes or invasion, the President stays out of it. Leon Panetta ordered the strike on Bin Laden, and the SeALs were operating under CIA command. Only after were the politicians informed of what happened.

I know it's easy to give in to all this anti-Americanism abroad and these outlandish and outrageous claims against the US, but you simply have to realize that if you aren't familiar with how things work, you simply JUST DON'T KNOW. Sadly, many people see this lack of knowledge and they then formulate theories based on haphazard data they get from the internet, and they just get more and more outlandish and ridiculous as time goes on, and before you know it, we've got aliens in Area-51, we're spraying weather-controlling agents into the atmosphere, and 9/11 was an inside job.

That doesn't mean that the government has everyone's benefit at the forefront of their mind...quite the opposite, actually. But that doesn't mean they'd let the WTC buildings be destroyed for a simple false flag operation. They've been doing false flags for years abroad and, to be honest, Americans are much more gullible than the rest of the world and take much less to convince. Such drastic measures as purposefully letting people blow up the WTC would be simply shooting themselves in the foot.
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Well said, Chris. ...and so very true.

I find it amazing just how much credit people give the government.. Anyone who have worked for, with, or as a part of the US government (or any government for that matter) can tell you that it's a place that is so dysfunctional they can't even get simple tasks done right , let alone a complex mission such as this... Not only that.... keeping it secret for how many years now? 11??? Really? In a country who can't even keep their CIA agents' identity hidden, are we to expect that no one has yet to come up and tell us this was a government conspiracy act?!
Holy jesus fuck.

Conspiracy Theories follow the same basic criteria of religion: FEAR FEAR FEAR. Feed the masses fear, give them bogus facts, make a youtube video about it, and et voila! you got yourself a herd that will believe the government was behind a terrorist attack ... REALLY?!

I especially love all the professional engineers, talking about how the building couldn't have possibly fall from the airplane yada yada yada, while forgetting the WTC buildings were the ONLY ones in our history that A) were build in this fashion, B) got hit by a plane C) were so huge.
I suppose we should hit a couple of buildings in China that are similar to the WTC just to test out this theory...


Conspiracy theorists make me laugh.
 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snob

Can't give a more perfect definition of a word that encapsulates everything that is Bill Maher.

He is just a talking head anyways, so fuck his opinion on anything. Just because I agree with him on most things doesn't mean he is any better than the likes of Bill O'reilly or Sean Hannity. Do you guys even find Maher funny? He is pure comedic shit. That is amazing in itself, proving that democrats like to have a circlejerk leader as much as anyone else.
 
Altitudes said:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/snob

Can't give a more perfect definition of a word that encapsulates everything that is Bill Maher.

He is just a talking head anyways, so fuck his opinion on anything. Just because I agree with him on most things doesn't mean he is any better than the likes of Bill O'reilly or Sean Hannity. Do you guys even find Maher funny? He is pure comedic shit. That is amazing in itself, proving that democrats like to have a circlejerk leader as much as anyone else.
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I don't find him funny in a comedic sense...I find his show hilarious, however.

The difference between Maher and everyone else is that he pulls no punches for anyone. He rips on everyone...it's just that the Republicans provide much more and much better fodder. He doesn't have any agenda, he just comments and gives his opinion on matters. He's brutally honest with anyone and never lets anything slide, even if someone he likes says something he disagrees with.

I find he has much more integrity than anyone else hosting any type of program whatsoever. Numerous times he's been on CNN and Fox and other news channels under fire for his comments, and every single time they ask him if he's sorry for what he said, he always says he's sorry if anyone got their feelings hurt but is never apologetic for what he believes to be true and just.

The man should fucking run for President.
 
WhiteBeastofWotan said:
Oh my, this thread just reached a whole new level of stupid.
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Whereas comments like these lift the thread back up to shining, exemplary levels of learned discourse.

Dead Winter said:
Being aware of intelligence about the probability of something happening then doing nothing about it is criminal, true, but that doesn't mean they purposefully let two planes attack the WTC.
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I'm not saying they did (although, re-reading my post, it probably came across as such). What I am saying is that not enough was done, despite the clear and present threat, confirmed by four foreign intelligence agencies. Then is it such paranoia and tinfoil-hattery to wonder if perhaps not enough was done on purpose? Not saying I have evidence that it happened that way, but I am saying I can't fault people for thinking it may have. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories either, but I'm definitely not a fan of ridiculing people who try to think for themselves instead of blindly assuming that whatever the government says is true.

Is it conceivable that it happened? Well, yes, but it's also conceivable that aliens exist.
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Correct. It's conceivable, so people who subscribe to the theory may be wrong, but they aren't crackpot Lone Gunmen either.

People need to understand that the US government is not some giant machine that plots about a New World Order
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Nah, I don't subscribe to any of that New World Order shit, but I do believe that a government is a business these days, a company that needs to make a profit and cater to its shareholders. And the people at the top of companies do horrible things without a second thought. Look at what companies like Chiquita have done. Don't think your government, or indeed any government, is above such things.

NORAD is not ONE ENTITY.
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No, it's not. But simple communication taking longer than half an hour? Half an hour is a long time in a crisis situation, man. Again, could have been a simple case of incompetence, but thinking it may have been deliberate is not that outlandish.

F-14s were not used; F-15Cs and F-16s were. F-14s have been obsolete for years. The F-14 is a Navy jet, not Air Force.
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You got me on that one. Fighter types aren't my specialty, and I'm more or less stating the facts as I know them from memory, thanks for clearing that up.


Do you realize how long it takes to spin-up a jet and get it ready? Hours. There are some that are always there and ready in case but the pilots aren't necessarily on alert.
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Hmmm. You make a good point there, but it's still strange that they scramble fighters stationed hundreds of kliks away instead of those close by.

The fact that they scrambled the wrong units is buffoonery on the part of command, not some government conspiracy to delay the scramble order. People fuck up and in the military they fuck up A LOT, whether people want to believe it or not.
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Oh, I'll believe that in an instant. But again, is it that strange that people wonder whether or not it was idiocy or deliberate stalling? No, it's not. Again, not saying they're right, but going HURRR DURRR CONSPIRACY THEORY MORONS is just as stupid as obstinately refusing to consider any other thinking track than "evil muslem terrorists acting on their own red blue white all the way USA! USA!".

"It's not that the US military is so good at what it does, it's simply that everyone else sucks so badly at it."
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Heh, well put. And yeah, militaries, police forces and other such organizations are actually more inept than people think. But is it that unthinkable that some people were inept on purpose that day? It's certainly not impossible.


To put it simply, someone dropped the ball. There is no conspiracy, there is no pretext to war by allowing 9/11 to happen. SOMEONE SIMPLY FUCKED UP.
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I'm inclined to believe so too, but that doesn't mean it's good sense, or common decency, to start belittling and ridiculing people who try to be skeptical of their government. Until it's proven IMPOSSIBLE that the delays and the fuck-ups were not malafide, the "they let it happen"-theory remains a viable, if unlikely, thinking track.


You simply don't understand just how big the US military is and how delicate these things are and how they can go wrong in a second. Drawing a line from political malfeasance, knowing it exists everywhere and in every country, and then taking that and somehow reaching the illogical conclusion that because one or two people made a stupid suggestion automatically indicates that the entire government and military were colluding to murder innocent people to start a war is, well, beyond ridiculous.
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It's not. It's happened before. Again, don't think your government, or ours, is above it. It wouldn't be the first time it happened. And I'm not saying they were conspiring to murder people, but I'm saying it's perfectly possible that the people at the top knew something was coming, and thought to themselves, "Hmm, that'd be a nice excuse to start a war," and so they put the lid on a few things, silenced a few intelligence and military people, and so made all the other people completely unprepared. Is that such a ridiculous theory?

I know it's easy to give in to all this anti-Americanism abroad and these outlandish and outrageous claims against the US, but you simply have to realize that if you aren't familiar with how things work, you simply JUST DON'T KNOW.
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It's not about anti-Americanism, at least not for me. It's about realizing that people in high places of government are so dangerously desensitized that they are emotionally perfectly capable of allowing such an attack to take place. Did they? I don't know. And you don't know either. And until we do, let's not start confusing people who try to objectively analyze facts with people who jump on every crackpot black helicopter alert and see conspiracies at every turn. 9/11 deserves to be looked at, and analyzed to the last thread. And until that's done, theories that claim the government may have deliberately fucked up aren't debunked, and the people who have them don't deserve to be ridiculed with exaggerated straw man arguments.

Sadly, many people see this lack of knowledge and they then formulate theories based on haphazard data they get from the internet, and they just get more and more outlandish and ridiculous as time goes on, and before you know it, we've got aliens in Area-51, we're spraying weather-controlling agents into the atmosphere, and 9/11 was an inside job.
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That's awfully condescending of you. And to be honest, I think just blindly trusting what the government feeds you is just as ignorant as unconditionally subscribing to every conspiracy theory. You cannot argue that governments are led by desensitized, if not downright evil, people with hidden agendas.

That doesn't mean that the government has everyone's benefit at the forefront of their mind...quite the opposite, actually. But that doesn't mean they'd let the WTC buildings be destroyed for a simple false flag operation. They've been doing false flags for years abroad and, to be honest, Americans are much more gullible than the rest of the world and take much less to convince. Such drastic measures as purposefully letting people blow up the WTC would be simply shooting themselves in the foot.
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Maybe they didn't know it'd be such a massive scale attack? Maybe they only had vague information to work with? Maybe they didn't take the threat seriously and thought it'd be just some pathetic little bombing? I know, it's all maybes, but that's the whole point. MAYBE things happened that way. I'm not saying you should believe that theory, but I am saying you shouldn't discount it as completely unrealistic and impossible. And therefore, posts like "lol I bet u think wtc was conspiracy too lol" are completely uncalled for.
 
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